Our Views: For Mormons, a proud figure

Who would have thought, not very many years ago, that the two candidates for president of the United States would be a Mormon and a black incumbent?

While it does not need to be belabored, the pairing of President Barack Obama and challenger Mitt Romney underlines the incredible capacity for social improvement in the United States, a place where old barriers of all kinds can be overcome.

So close, though, makes it a difficult accomplishment for Romney: “Think of Democrat Al Smith’s pain as the first Catholic presidential nominee, losing to Herbert Hoover in a landslide,” St. Francisville writer Rod Dreher noted.

In that 1928 race, burning crosses sometimes marked the passage of Smith’s campaign train. Anti-Catholic prejudice persisted for many years as a political factor.

We have come a long way.

Comments

1) Comment by Whatnow - 16/11/2012

Protean, I don't believe I am being hypocritical when I hear the man speak on television and when I read his life story written with his own words to be able to choose him as a President. I haven't met him or had a conversation with him. So, when you voted for your President, did you do so on the basis of meeting him in person or having a conversation with him? And when our views differ, I am being a hypocrite or judgmental? I have to be judgmental on the information that these men put out there, just like you do. It's not judging their souls to either heaven or hell. It's just judging their policies that they offer. So, because I didn't like his policies, I am being a hypocrite? What about your choice? How come you are not being a hypocrite with your choice? Voting is judging a man's policies. Not his soul.

2) Comment by Protean - 15/11/2012

Banty, bandy ... whatever you wish. And I'll clarify: I'm not here to endorse or entertain you. Simple belief is not a target, yours or anyone else's. Plenty of 'believers' who really don't bother with empty claims they're non-judgemental, and they really do try to rid themselves of hypocrisy rather than fling the slur about carelessly. But as you said, to each his own. And as I say, to each his due.

3) Comment by Whatnow - 15/11/2012

Sorry, typo. I meant bandy.... and I'll repeat. I'm not going to bandy words with you over something you know about but condemn others for believing. I am not here for your target practice.

4) Comment by Protean - 15/11/2012

An atheist doesn't need to believe in spook worlds to recognize the malice in any claim "if you do not speak the magic words, make the magic signs and interpret the magic book the way some self-appointed interpreter tells you to do, then you will be eternally tortured by my invisible friend, no matter how kind or broadly beneficial was your behaviour throughout your life, and that's that!". The issue isn't the existence of heaven or hell, it's the hateful mindset that fuels the very divisions of humanity (not just Americans) you claim to disdain. And when you pray for someone, do you really plead for his well being per se, or are you asking that he be supernaturally compelled to use the magic words, signs, interpretations that support your own "belief and testimony"? If the former, good on you. If the latter, then you are not praying for the other guy's benefit; you're merely comforting yourself with the delusion of good will toward others. As for your judging duties, too late to plead innocent on that count. Refer to your previous accusations of hypocrisy against people you've never seen, nevermind held a conversation. Look at the standard you apply to the other guy as compared to the one you claim you "studied intensely from both sides". Looks like your standards are ... flexible. By the way, banty is a contraction for bantam. I'm not discussing chickens.

5) Comment by Whatnow - 15/11/2012

The point is, DMJ. If he is an atheist, he also doesn't believe in heaven or hell. Are you saying that you believe in heaven and hell? Why do you if you don't believe in Christianity? Do you practice another faith that has a heaven and a hell? Forgiveness is not automatic because you believe in Jesus. Matthew 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6) You cannot make reasons to go to heaven with YOUR works. It is only through Christ. And DMJ, yes, we do have to forgive others and pray for them. If we don't, we will not be forgiven. I do not hate anyone. And it is not my job to judge anyone, including Christians. It doesn't take an idiot to know that anyone who lies constantly is not a Christian, even though he poses as one. Try this site, DMJ. It may help explain what I'm trying to say.

6) Comment by DMJ - 15/11/2012

"Good works will not get you into heaven." So....can you tell a "true" Christian by his works or not? Not to be snide, but you seem to be a bit confused on that point. And this isn't your fault. I think this is the main inherent flaw of Christianity- as long as you accept Jesus, everything else is forgiveable. A person who devotes his life to helping others but is an atheist goes to hell, but a selfish, racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic person who accepts Jesus and is really sorry about spending his life as a misanthrope can get into heaven. I remember thinking this was really unfair as I was being indoctrinated as a kid. This sense of unfairness was the seed of my atheism. That no one has ever presented an adequate explanation or justification for this is what keeps me an atheist.

7) Comment by Whatnow - 14/11/2012

Protean, I'm not going to banty words with you over something you know about but condemn others for believing. None of the labels that you listed bother me. It's when they are used to define a person instead of who they are. For example, "Fred" the homosexual, vs Fred. Or when used with a nasty adjective. And you may call what I have a myth, but it is my testimony and my beliefs. Like I said, "To each his own." DMJ, you answered my point with your first sentence about Obama. And he was an easy subject. I am not here to judge Obama's soul. I had a duty to vote for a leader. I do the best I can do. Good works will not get you into heaven. Since a person who does good works, but doesn't believe, what difference does it make? He will be an asset to humanity while here on earth. He may get a plaque. DMJ, Christians don't have the monopoly on good values. All people vote with their values. There are people who value life and dislike abortion. That doesn't mean they are Christians. They don't have to be. The pandering is also to those values, not necessarily Christians. I disliked it when he pandered to all the different segments instead of "fellow Americans." Especially the one commercial to just black Americans. But, he knew the game and played it and won. Now we sit back and watch and fight for our values another day.

8) Comment by Protean - 14/11/2012

"... what you do about that lie afterward..." meaning what? Mumble magic spells and ask for forgiveness, only to repeat the process endlessly? How convenient. And don't tell me that's not how it works. It's the essence of the myth, the "hook" that brings them back. As for labels, "christian", "republican", "conservative", "liberal", "democrat". Which of those labels do not heavily influence your choices and your rhetoric? With all _due_ respect, I find your claims to be disingenuous, at best.

9) Comment by Whatnow - 14/11/2012

@Protean, Christians values are not what saves them and what saves them is not copyrighted. It is available to all who seek it. And honesty is not only claimed by Christians. There are plenty of Christians that lie. It's what you do about that lie afterward that determines a true Christian. I know many honest people that don't believe and that is their choice. To each his own. I imagine it's very hard for a politician to be a perfect Christian. (Jesus was the only one) I didn't vote for Romney because of his religion. I voted for him because of his humanity, his reasoning, work ethic, and values. I wanted a man who is better at walking the talk. I did not find that in Obama. I found Obama to be a divider and dishonest in the highest degree. I studied both men intensely from both sides of the isle and read Obama's books and I found nothing of value in the man or his associates. If someone doesn't agree, that's fine. That's what freedom is all about. But, at least I wasn't voting blindly, like so many. I don't think it's wrong to vote for someone who has more of your own values than the other guy. I don't even like my own wife 100% of the time. I do find this letter kind of silly, though. I have never liked labels. They divide us as Americans.

10) Comment by DMJ - 14/11/2012

Honestly, I think Obama is a closet atheist. Both his parents were, after all. I don't cringe (I'm too used to politicians pontificating by now) but you're right. I don't like it. I hate that you have to pander to relgious people, Christians in particular, to get elected in this country. I don't have a problem with anyone quoting the Bible, per say. The Bible contains a lot of wisdom....it also contains a lot of garbage. Wisdom is inherent in all people and manifests itself in "holy" texts. You can pick and choose which parts are relevant to you. Most people, smartly, do just that. About true vs. fake Christians...what if a person devoted his entire life to helping other people, yet didn't believe that the Jesus story was real? Fake Christian? True Christian? How would you be able to tell, as you said, "by his actions"?

11) Comment by Protean - 14/11/2012

Then you'd be compelled to vote for an atheist, wouldn't you. If honesty is a critical part of what christians claim as their own trademarked and copyrighted values, then the atheist would the only politician of the entire lot who is being honest about that part of his convictions. But I suspect that when election time comes around, the veracity of a politicians beliefs lags far behind how well it's branded and marketed. And yes, that applies to Obama, Bush and even Saint Piyush.

12) Comment by Whatnow - 14/11/2012

It wouldn't matter if he was in or out of the closet, DMJ. True Christians know a fake Christian by his actions. I just have to wonder if you cringe whenever Obama quotes the Bible. Seriously, what is your take on that?

13) Comment by DMJ - 14/11/2012

Relax, guys. Just poking a little fun at the LDS. Whatnow, you make a good point: Romney didn't push his beliefs on anyone...in fact, he didn't even really talk about them. Let's hope this trend continues. It's like I always say... when people stop talking about their religions, I'll stop ridiculing them. What I think would be a real step forward is if an (out of the closet) atheist ran for office...and won. Now, that would be something, wouldn'tt it?

14) Comment by Triple - 14/11/2012

DMJ, You've made your absence of faith in God and your opinion of Christians well known. Obama has stated on numerous occasions he is a Christian, so why is one fantasy better or worse for the country?

15) Comment by Whatnow - 14/11/2012

DMJ, some of us don't believe in voting for someone who voted for live birth abortions. Does that make us intolerant? Did Romney push his Mormon doctrine beliefs on anyone?

16) Comment by DMJ - 14/11/2012

Call me intolerant, but I don't think nominating someone for President who belongs to a religion that teaches its followers that the Native Americans are descendants of the lost tribe of Israel that sailed across the Atlantic 1000 years before the Vikings, that Jesus appeared to them in Missouri, that the reason their skin is dark is because they were cursed by god, who is from the planet Kolab...is a great step forward for this country. What's next? Cruise/Travolta 2016?!

17) Comment by Whatnow - 14/11/2012

Bighug, do you suffer from dementia? Your statement proves your ignorance of today's Mormon church. And if Wright was so wonderful, how come Obama threw him under the bus for his views and even left his church? Was that another deception on Obama's part? You are a liberal parrot, Bighug. It is evident that you do not really understand what you are repeating. We should drop all labels and follow Dr. King's word about judging a person by their character. Facts also help.

18) Comment by [e-mail] - 14/11/2012

A black and a Morman? What kind of way is that to characterize people? Characterize them according to their works; if one does that one might well consider differently. Maybe even with reason.

19) Comment by slye753 - 14/11/2012

BIGHUG, glad you woke up after your two year sleep. now get your facts straight and compare them to your two year dream.

20) Comment by Triple - 14/11/2012

Bighug, you can't be serious!  Rolling Grandma off a cliff in a wheel chair, woman dies of cancer because of Romney's association with Bain, get real, Dems are expert mud slingers, it's the tactic of choice.

21) Comment by Bighug - 14/11/2012

Give credit to the Democrats for not stooping to the lying and mud-slinging tactics of the GOP. One day they were claiming that Obama's Christian pastor was anti-US, and the next day claiming Obama was a Moslem! Never once did I hear of a Democrat mentioning that the Mormon founder preached that black people were tools of Satan.