Letter: Struggle is part of God’s plan

What the Rev. Gerrit Dawson sees as “a drift away from traditional Christian orthodoxy and morality” (The Advocate, Oct. 27 ) on the part of the Presbyterian Church (USA), I see as a courageous response to God’s call for justice. As a minister in the PCUSA for 32 years, I feel privileged to be part of a church which seeks to fully embrace the gifts of all its members.

Yes, the Presbyterian Church has suffered painful splits over the course of its history: division over the Civil War; over opening doors for women to be elected to the offices of deacon, elder and pastor; and most recently, over allowing churches the option to elect gay and lesbian Christians to these same offices.

In each case, pain has come to those working toward an understanding of what is right. We Christians may not like conflict, but faith takes us there from time to time, as it took the one we follow.

In my view, addressing and working through conflict is as much a part of our Presbyterian mission as feeding the hungry and telling our story. I trust that, in the crucible of our differences, God calls the church to an ongoing reformation. In my view, the PC (USA) has not drifted but is on a steady course, taking up in every age the foundational struggle of what it means to love God and to love neighbor as self.

the Rev. Charlene Heaton, pastor

Baker Presbyterian Church

Baton Rouge

Comments

1) Comment by Whatnow - 06/11/2012

Wizards and goblins, DMJ?

2) Comment by DMJ - 06/11/2012

Church membership is declining because people are getting smarter. Virgin births, holy spirits, resurrections, tongues of fire, wizards, goblins, demons, etc. We don't need any of this stuff to be good people. This is why the fastest growing "religious group" is those who are not religious.

3) Comment by Gradstudent1 - 05/11/2012

I applaud Reverend Heaton. You can not call yourself a Christian and at the same time Condemn and judge others. A church is to be all welcoming. I was appalled by Reverend Dawson's closed-minded comment that it is much better now that he is with "like-minded people". Unfortunately in the South homophobia and Condemnation of homosexuals rule. I'm sure Baker Presbyterian is losing members for the same reason other churches are. More people identify themselves as "unchurched" than ever before, and a main reason for that is the ideas of exclusion and close-minded ness as exhibited by so-called Christians like Reverend Dawson. To correct someone else's statement. it is very easy to dismiss a Presbyterian minister. Unlike most religions, PC USA is equally controlled and administered by lay people as by ministers. The congregation Decides when to dismiss. I've served as an Elder in a PC USA church. It's very democratic.

4) Comment by Gradstudent1 - 05/11/2012

I applaud Reverend Heaton. Anyone that calls themselves a Christian does not seek to exclude anyone, condemn anyone , or claim to speak for God. ALL churches are losing members and those who call themselves "unchurched" is rising and one of those reasons is people like Reverend Dawson and his close-minded ways. Unfortunately hatred of homosexuals is highly prevalent in the South (the Bible Belt). What disturbed me the most about Reverend Dawson was when he stated he was much happier being with "like- minded people". This from a minister? Sad. Oh, and it is not a long drawn out process to dismiss a Presbyterian minister as someone said. I have served as an Elder in PC(USA) and unlike most religions, the lay people have much power within the church.

5) Comment by 1ryben - 05/11/2012

The Golden Rule. Not all its cracked up to be either. Do we treat Charles Manson (showing my age) as we'd like to be treated? Should we? Or Derrick Todd Lee? When the officer pulls you over, do want leniency? For everyone? No one would ever get a ticket. There would be no sense in having traffic patrol.

6) Comment by Whatnow - 05/11/2012

1ryben, this is a wonderful site to look up Bible verses. It has just about every Bible listed to help you understand better. http://www.biblegateway.com/

7) Comment by Whatnow - 05/11/2012

1ryben, here's the link. (http://gospelway.com/religiousgroups/judaism.php) Also scroll to the bottom of the page and read (http://www.gospelway.com/bible/religious_confusion.php) I hope this helps.

8) Comment by Whatnow - 05/11/2012

1ryben, If you want to try to understand, I found this sight that might explain it better. I don't want to confuse you. It takes a long time to study the Bible and someone more qualified than me to teach it. This site is extensive in that you have to read Bible verses, but it also explains very well. I would recommend as you search using the versions of the modern language Bible such as the New Living Translation. Also remember, in the Old Testament, along with Jewish and Moses's law, there was no forgiveness. Jesus's New Covenant was prophesied to change the old laws. He offers forgiveness to all who believe in him and ask for forgiveness. I will pray that you find understanding. Knock and the door will be open to you, seek and you shall find. Keep me posted.

9) Comment by DMJ - 05/11/2012

Man, religion is creepy. To hear people speak and write with such certainty about things they couldn't possibly know is just flat-out weird. Bottom line: no one knows if there's a god; no one knows what he/she/it wants, and no one knows what, if anything, happens after we die. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional or is lying. That being said, I think the Golden Rule (including incarnations of it that pre-date Christianity by centuries) is a great moral precept.

10) Comment by 1ryben - 04/11/2012

No sarcasm, only serious. I apologize if I came across that way. According to Jesus himself, he did not nullify the Old Testament. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). Taken from Jesus' sermon on the mount.

11) Comment by Whatnow - 04/11/2012

1ryben, Jesus didn't teach the Old Testament to his followers. The Old Testament not to justify men, but to give men the knowledge of sin. Christ's teachings are the new Covenant. Christ's love is there for everyone. But, he did say "Go and sin no more" and died on the cross to take away our sins if we believe in him. I'm not the judge of man. I am just trying to help you answer a question. But, if you want to be sarcastic, then good afternoon to you.

12) Comment by 1ryben - 04/11/2012

I do get the point. One group wants to welcome all to Christ's love while another group would rather not. Sounds simple to me.

13) Comment by CountryBoysCanSurvive - 04/11/2012

I think you people are missing the point, that Baker Presbyterian was a small, sleepy, simple, country church not ready for the debauchery of her thinking, brought down on our church. This is Baker not California.

14) Comment by 1ryben - 04/11/2012

When Jesus refers to scripture, it is obviously the Old Testament. There was no New Testament. Jesus was a Jew. The New Testament wasn't written until 100-300 years after Jesus died.

15) Comment by Chucky - 04/11/2012

@ 1ryben - In His time what was scripture ? surely not what we have today. Like the Bible was not put together till when ?

16) Comment by 1ryben - 04/11/2012

Jesus did away with the old laws? When? It wasn't in John 10:35 when he states "the scripture cannot be broken" or Matthew 15:6 "until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law" sounds like Jesus himself was pretty clear. Jesus saw the Old Testament as God's word and God's law. So Jesus was wrong? He didn't know what he was talking about?

17) Comment by krl777 - 04/11/2012

@Whatnow, God and Jesus didn't evolve, nor did Allah. But for most Christians and many Muslims, the conception of the relationship between their religious and civil lives has evolved to the point that they do not dedicate themselves to inflicting their theology on others. You and the Taliban have failed to evolve, and are actively working to drag the world back into primitive sectarian conflict.

18) Comment by Whatnow - 04/11/2012

@krl777, when did the God and Jesus evolve? And only non-believers think it's a spectacle. @ 1ryben, Jesus did away with the old Jewish laws because he knew that he would have followers that weren't Jews. A lot of the food and clothing laws, sacrificial laws, etc. were Jewish laws and not the way to salvation. Read John 3:16-17 Hebrews 10:9,10 - Hebrews gives a detailed comparison between the Old Testament ("first will") and the New Testament ("second will"). It claims that God sent Jesus to "take away" the first and "establish" the second. It then shows the benefits of the New Testament and why we should accept it as the replacement of the Old. Romans 3:20 - Why then did God gave the Old Testament? It was given, not to justify men, but to give men the knowledge of sin. It showed that "all have sinned" (v23). This is proved by numerous quotes from the Old Law itself (v9-18). This forgiveness is offered by Jesus' death on the cross through the teachings of the gospel (New Testament). Since this system of faith has now come, we are no longer under the Judaic schoolmaster (Old Law). By accepting the New Testament, Jews are inheriting the blessing God promised to Abraham's descendants. Now, does that help in any way?

19) Comment by Chucky - 04/11/2012

@1ryben - You have four ? marks but i guess your ? is" Why the hang up on homosexuality?" It is a hold over from wanting to build up the tribe, making more people than the other tribe had, more people = more power. Just a guess and stop shouting.

20) Comment by krl777 - 04/11/2012

Hello, Pakistan? Medieval Europe? Some of your people got lost in a space-time wormhole and popped up here in 21st century America. They are falling into sectarian strife and making a complete spectacle of themselves. Please take them back, before they start a religious war. Most of us here have evolved beyond that sort of thing.

21) Comment by Christine - 04/11/2012

The schismatic Rev. Dawson has more than his fair share of brass. First he unilaterally leads his congregation out of the PC(USA), violating any number of denominational rules in the process, then he turns around and continues to criticize the denomination he left behind. He may believe his church to be a bastion of orthodoxy, but he himself is no example of Christian graciousness. Clearly he had no stomach for the creative struggle that Rev. Heaton so eloquently describes, and instead prefers to launch pot shots from his safe and exalted perch in the EPC. I'm sure he finds the blanket of moral superiority he's wrapped himself in very comfortable indeed.

22) Comment by CountryBoysCanSurvive - 04/11/2012

2 Herb F...in the Presbyterian Church, you cannot just replace someone, like a cashier at Circle K. It is a long drawn out process. Baker Presbyterian can hardly meet monthly expenses any more, must less rid itself of this woman. Hopefully after she has earned a retirement she will fade into the sunset.

23) Comment by lovemykids - 04/11/2012

1ryben---Those who like to discriminate by using religion have no answer to your question.

24) Comment by 1ryben - 04/11/2012

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION?

25) Comment by Whatnow - 04/11/2012

Jesus didn't mention bestiality, either. Let them make a new church that they can go to. To each his own. Whatever people decide to do is their business and between God and themselves. God knows all and will judge. But, when a church is based on God, the Bible, and the teachings of Jesus, adapting to man's rules is forsaking the doctrines of the Church. I'm sure if people shop around, just like doctors, they will find one that fits their own agenda. There are plenty out there.

26) Comment by nimby? - 03/11/2012

denominations have made christianity more convenient , available to the lost souls in search of something ; seems as tho there's a church for anything . the original church(of Christ) will continue to splinter itself into oblivion ...

27) Comment by HerbF - 03/11/2012

Judging by the comments, why don't you replace her? The congregation is obviously split and loosing members. Time to change, or close.

28) Comment by 1ryben - 03/11/2012

In all seriousness though. Christians everywhere claim the Bible as God's word. Yet, they pick and choose certain parts to ignore. Why the hang up on homosexuality? Can someone, anyone exain this to me? If you can willfully, knowingly ignore other parts of God's word, why not this one? What are you so afraid of?

29) Comment by Chucky - 03/11/2012

"Yes, the Presbyterian Church has suffered painful splits over the course of its history" and you do not mention the split from the one and only True Religion, The Holy Catholic Church, The Peter and Rock of Christ Jesus on this earth.

30) Comment by potkcalb - 03/11/2012

I am not a religious practitioner, but I applaud Reverend Heaton for the positions that she has expressed.

31) Comment by CountryBoysCanSurvive - 03/11/2012

21ryben, I wasn't trying to be, just stating facts. She has divided this church better than Satan ever could. I am sure he is laughing his head off.

32) Comment by CountryBoysCanSurvive - 03/11/2012

****Comment Removed for Violation of Terms of Use****

33) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 03/11/2012

Yes, what WOULD Jesus do,especially considering he never mentioned that homosexuality and abortion were sins?

34) Comment by Whatnow - 03/11/2012

What would Jesus do? He would tell sinners to go and sin no more. He would never condone anyone who didn't stop sinning once they knew Christ. Once you know Jesus Christ truly in your heart, you will follow him, strive to stop sinning, ask for forgiveness and he will take you in. "When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'? "When Jesus heard that, he said to them, "Healthy people don't need a physician, but sick ones do. I did not come to call righteous people, but sinners." Mark 2:16 Jesus came to help sinners, like me, and to show us the way out of our sin. He didn't adapt to our sin.

35) Comment by phil - 03/11/2012

Since we all are sinners then I believe we all should be allowed to attend any church we want to. Basically that is one reason churches exist. That is to lead all of us sinners into the right direction and away from sin.

36) Comment by Bighug - 03/11/2012

Good for you, Rev. Heaton. It is nice to see that not every congregation in Baton Rouge is part of the hate group Family Forum.

37) Comment by 1ryben - 03/11/2012

Atta boy CountryBoy! Very Christian of you.

38) Comment by lovemykids - 03/11/2012

Love the sinner hate the sin. What a crock of ----! Christians throughout history used similar words to discriminate and kill. Please don't try to hide your bigotry behind a god.

39) Comment by 1ryben - 03/11/2012

@ScottB, you are so right, a sin is a sin. Have you checked the materials of all your garments? Leviticus 19:19 forbid garments of mixed fibers. Get a haircut lately, forbidden Leviticus 19:27. It's the same Leviticus (18:22 & 20:13) than condemns homosexuality. I bet you enjoy you polyester blend, wrinkle free pants. You probably get a haircut every month or so too. Shave? It seems to me you (and most other Christian hatemongers) already treat the Bible like an a la carte menu, why hold so dear condemnation of homosexuals? Dd I just blaspheme God? I better get my hard hat, Leviticus 24:14.

40) Comment by 1ryben - 03/11/2012

@ScottB, you are so right, a sin is a sin. Have you checked the materials of all your garments? Leviticus 19:19 forbid garments of mixed fibers. Get a haircut lately, forbidden Leviticus 19:27. It's the same Leviticus (18:22 & 20:13) than condemns homosexuality. I bet you enjoy you polyester blend, wrinkle free pants. You probably get a haircut every month or so too. Shave? It seems to me you (and most other Christian hatemongers) already treat the Bible like an a la carte menu, why hold so dear condemnation of homosexuals? Dd I just blaspheme God? I better get my hard hat, Leviticus 24:14.

41) Comment by CountryBoysCanSurvive - 03/11/2012

Pastor Heaton is killing Baker Presbyterian Church one day at a time. A Church that was once bursting at the seams with members, is now struggling to keep the doors open. I hope when you meet your maker you can look him in the eye, as he judges you for destroying His Church. I am sure that your lesbian clan will applaud you for your letter.

42) Comment by jdk944 - 03/11/2012

@ScotB - WELL SAID!! So Pastor Heaton attempts to compare the struggles of the civil war and opening doors for women, with acceptance of "allowing churches the option to elect gay and lesbian Christians to these same offices", using his exact words?? REALLY?? How disappointing Pastor. Which part of "sin", do you NOT understand?? You condone and promote it with your actions and those of your demonination, THAT is why Members are leaving. WAKEUP!!

43) Comment by Wallop - 03/11/2012

Churches are in decline all over the country because they refuse to change out of respect for "orthodoxy." Those that don't change get left behind. Nature is all about change. Anything that attempts to exist counter to that dies.

44) Comment by ScotB - 03/11/2012

Love each other, but hate sin. Sin is still sin. What is right is right. Some of what is being described as a reformation is a morality that is like shifting sand instead of truth that is built on bedrock. It is commanded that we forgive, but also that the sinner repent. It is not courageous to embrace sin. Normalization of homosexuality and abortion does not lead to the path of righteousness. There is no ambiguity about how God feels about sin and these sins in particular. However, as we know, one can never underestimate a person's ability to believe whatever they want to believe, rather than the truth. God can and will help those who seek his help.

45) Comment by twinkie1cat - 02/11/2012

I was part of a More Light Presbyterian Church before I moved to Louisiana. After some searching I was not able to find one here and changed denominations. PCUSA is a quality denomination that subscribes to Christ's call to inclusion of all God's children who believe in Jesus Christ. As such, they are a good example of God in us.