Our Views: College credit in high school

One of the closely watched indicators of rigorous academic quality in a school system is the number of students taking Advanced Placement courses. While Louisiana continues to be behind in that indicator, 49th of the states, the spread of AP courses is encouraging.

An AP course not only is more rigorous academically but in some cases allows students to enter four-year colleges with college credit. Over the last five years, AP enrollment has increased in Louisiana by 70 percent, according to the College Board, which oversees exams for AP courses.

As Education Superintendent John White puts it: “Louisiana has made great progress in growing enrollment in Advanced Placement courses but more needs to be done.”

In an interview with editors and reporters at The Advocate, White said that only about a third of Louisiana high schools offer any kind of AP course. That’s not good enough, because many students who do well in regular classes “struggle when they get to college,” and should have tried to up their game with an AP course or two.

For the class of 2011, which is latest available, 5.6 percent of public high school students in Louisiana scored high enough on an AP test to earn college credit. That’s a smidgen ahead of Mississippi, our savior on myriad national rankings. But that 5.6 percent is well below the national average of 18.1 percent.

The state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education voted in 2011 to require that all school districts offer at least one AP course for college credit. Its program for improvement is impressive, including training sessions for teachers to start AP courses. BESE will also fund 2013 test fees for low-income students who take the exams, which cost $87.

In school performance scores, schools get a bonus for students who do well enough on the test to earn college credit.

All that said, there remains an impediment — which should not really be an impediment — to students taking AP courses. With the TOPS scholarships awarded on the basis of ACT college admissions tests and grade-point averages in high school, some students might opt to stay in regular classes rather than risk a lower GPA in an AP course.

Obviously, this can be counterproductive, in both the long run and the short run. In the short run, a student capable of AP work won’t be challenged in regular classes, and in the long run the rigor of college work might come as a shock to a student — and his parents — who thought that regular classes would suffice. College-bound students would be well-advised to take AP courses, as the state’s efforts to expand availability takes root.

Comments

1) Comment by bourbon-soda - 05/10/2012

Another piece including pro and con opinions on the expansion of AP courses and testing: http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/20/the-advanced- placement-juggernaut/#comment24 or google [room for debate advanced placement new york times]. Examine the premise that expansion of this program is an unalloyed good.

2) Comment by [e-mail] - 05/10/2012

To the charge that I want to "limit education", I retort that when a student is paying for it education is and should be without bounds of any sort. When the taxpayer is paying for it, education should be a pragmatic excursion into "The Way Things Work".

3) Comment by bourbon-soda - 05/10/2012

Nothing here excludes the possibility that what has happened is that intro college courses have been dumbed down to what used to a good college prep high school course. The student then gets college credit for what used to be preparation for college. This hypothesis is consistent with the dilution of college-time education in Arum and Roksa's _Academically Adrift_.

4) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 05/10/2012

of course, ***** is just here to argue for argument's sake so he will respond with more drivel. He obviously finds this to be a fun game (one he is losing, but fun nonetheless)

5) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 05/10/2012

"•Students whose high school coursework emphasizes depth over breadth perform better in college courses. "Hurrying to the back of the textbook, so to speak, is worse than focusing in depth on the first few chapters," Sadler says." Who is hurrying to the end of the textbook (so to speak)? Students taking AP generally do so because their brains can handle accelerated learning environments. Hurrying to the end of the textbook occurred in college more than it ever did in HS. (All of these quotes are from the (very brief and devoid of details) Harvard Gazette article that ***** posted)

6) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 05/10/2012

"Laboratory experience as part of high school courses can be beneficial, but primarily when there is minimal preparation needed beforehand, the outcome of experiments is unknown in advance, and lab reports are written afterward" Swing and a miss...Both my AP Chemistry and Biology courses in HS involved lab work. They were actually separate classes.

7) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 05/10/2012

"Many high school and college educators surveyed by Sadler and Tai cited the value of AP courses, widely regarded as the most rigorous offered in most high schools. But college students in this study who had taken AP science courses, scored a 5 on the exam, and then took an introductory college course in the same discipline averaged a college grade of only 90, even after the added study at the college level. Students with an AP score of 4 averaged 87 in freshman science courses in the same subject; students who scored a 3 averaged 84; and students who took a non-AP high school honors course averaged 82. Sadler and Tai attributed roughly half the difference between these grades and the mean college grade of 80 to background variables unrelated to taking an AP course." Looks like AP courses, according the study you posted, DO boost grades in college. Of course, in order to make his study relevant, the author tries to deflect the disparity in grade by saying the difference is due to "background variables" which he fails to list.

8) Comment by bourbon-soda - 05/10/2012

The self-congratulatory testimonials become redundant. It is much easier to detect baloney in math and science than in other fields.

9) Comment by SuzanneMS - 04/10/2012

Those two AP courses must be why I only managed to earn an undergraduate and two graduate degrees. The articles you cite only refer to AP science courses -- biology, physics and chemistry -- at two schools, Harvard and the University of Virginia. The articles do not present the entire studies, with methodology, so it is impossible to evaluate the results. However, even if the results are valid, there are 30 other AP tests in other subjects. These results would not apply to them.

10) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

More personal testimonials. Keep those cards and letters coming. The problem is not the enhanced high school AP courses, it is dishing out college credit. Two more respectable opinions for the loyal opposition. If they don't work, search [harvard virginia ap science courses]. http://www.thecrimson.harvard.edu/article/2006/2/24/study-ap- science-courses-are-poor/ http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/02.23/05-ap.html

11) Comment by SuzanneMS - 04/10/2012

To say nothing of having wasted the last year of high school. AP courses are about more than earning college credit in high school. They are an opportunity for gifted students and those who excel in a given area to begin to work at their true level and to use their true potential. Funny thing is, even with my AP and CLEP credits, which allowed me to start college as a sophomore, I earned more college hours than required for graduation. I was just that interested in what I was learning. And, of course, the majority of them were upper division hours, which require real critical thinking, not 12 hours of mindless assimilation of canned lectures.

12) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 04/10/2012

you should have stopped after " I know that neither coincidence nor correlation is causation". You have offered nothing to support your claim. Sitting BORED in introductory classes would not have made my education any better. On the contrary, I would have wasted at least a semester.

13) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

The participant to gets to judge usually wins. Fewer hours in college (correlated with AP), inferior product (per Arums). No relationship. OK.

14) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 04/10/2012

arguing merely to continue an argument...you must be very bored. At least try to make cogent arguments. You have utterly failed so far.

15) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

The main derision here is the dudgeon of the products of AP at having a sacred cow tipped, suggesting a certain rigidity of thought. A secondary one is the obsession with the characteristics of anyone who tips the sacred cow.

16) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 04/10/2012

"12 more hours should add something to anyone's education" That statement alone just shows yet again how ignorant you are about this subject. Again, what’s your beef? I’m not sure why anyone would spend so much time deriding AP as you have.

17) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 04/10/2012

Your argument makes less sense with each post...You want to hold back those gifted and mature enough to proceed in their learning at a faster pace that you do (or did). I got a great education and I would not have gotten a better one if I had attended a bunch of introductory courses designed for those not quite ready for college. That’s the purpose of CLEP and AP. Get over it.

18) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

If there is no correlation between educational outcome and hours attended, just give everybody a bachelor's degree at high school graduation. Yes, 12 more hours should add something to anyone's education.

19) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 04/10/2012

"Nothing yet here inconsistent with the thesis that the less you go to college, the less a degree means." Your "thesis" is has no basis in fact. Is my degree less meaningful because I was able to test out of 12 credits? Not in the least. You will call that anecdotal evidence but unless you find a comprehensive study which compares college graduates’ critical thinking skills to AP testing, then my anecdotal evidence certainly outweighs your lack of evidence. Did you fail an AP test in HS? Just curious what skin you have in this game...

20) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

Thanks. Nothing yet here inconsistent with the thesis that the less you go to college, the less a degree means. Thanks. At least it's a stimulus for the testing industry.

21) Comment by SuzanneMS - 04/10/2012

AP tests only allow you to test out of introductory level courses, which means that students can more quickly move into intermediate courses which require much more critical thinking and writing. The colleges and universities determine how many credits to award based on the score on the exam and which courses can be waived. The exams are a combination of objective (usually multiple choice) and essay, so it's impossible to "teach to the test." No one knows what the questions will be for any given year. And if you're all that worried about the effect of AP tests on the "decline of the college degree," you're going to be up all night once you look up CLEP tests.

22) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

The main benefit seems to be willingness to convene an inquisition over any questioning of the program.

23) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 04/10/2012

good thing I didn’t hold my breath. i read some of the "criticisms” of AP. None of them outweigh the benefits, sorry...

24) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

As often happens here, the links below do not work. Try googling "criticism of advanced placement" to find other heretics on this.

25) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

Heretical writings on the idea that the AP program might be detrimental to education. Especially interesting is the idea that it promotes (horrors) "teaching to the test," and suggestions that it may diminish the value-added of a college education: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/02/10/ap http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-03-30- advanced-placement_N.htm http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/04/education/04EDUCATION. html?_r=0

26) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

@Whatchange - another anecdote. Thanks.

27) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

I realize one no longer has to put in four years equivalent of college to get a bachelor's if one substitutes AP for some of it, I merely question whether that is a salutary development or has it contributed to the decline of the college degree as documented in Arums' _et al_ _Academically Adrift_. I know that neither coincidence nor correlation is causation but the question might be worth looking at whether finessing a year of college on the basis of high school work has contributed to the decline in critical thinking and writing that Arums has written about.

28) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 04/10/2012

again ***** you have proven my point. You are completely ignorant about how AP courses are taught, the certification process to teach them, and more importantly the breadth of knowledge one must have to pass the examination. When I entered LSU as a freshman, due to AP and Spring Testing, I was able to test out of 12 hours of introductory classes. I had a classmate who actually entered LSU as a sophomore partially due to AP examinations. So you are wrong, you do NOT have to “log four years' worth of hours before being awarded a baccalaureate” You can keep digging your heels in or admit you are wrong. I won’t hold my breath that you will do the latter.

29) Comment by Whatchange - 04/10/2012

@bourbon_soda, when in school did you take AP courses, do you have/had kids in school who took part in AP courses. My youngest son took them in school and benefited greatly from them.

30) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 04/10/2012

Thanks for proving my point @bourbon_soda.

31) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

@Tea_Slayer - that "AP courses are rigorous and the exams are quite extensive and difficult" does not mean that they are different from traditional college preparatory courses and examinations following which the prepared student was still expected to log four years' worth of hours before being awarded a baccalaureate. AP courses do not seem to impart in any lasting way that personal characterization may be an attempt at diversion from the question asked. @ Noel Hammett - what anyone else posted is irrelevant as to whether you are deciding what is important, a dirty job but someone has to do it.

32) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 04/10/2012

Tea slayer, I wish all of my posts were above yours... lol. Ouch!

33) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 04/10/2012

@bourbon_soda: Clearly we have different semantic interpretations; he clearly indicated that math, science and business were the only courses that are "worthwhile" and should be offered for "the serious student." Other course would just be paying "lip service." I merely pointed out examples of what should not be denied a place in education, and in no way limited it to these. If you wish to go on until you can claim "rhetorical victory" in these posts, then I acquiesce. I claim you "victorious" in your search for validation! You often make very good points.

34) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 04/10/2012

As a person who has taken multiple AP courses and passed the exams, as well as a person whose child is currently taking AP courses, I find it ludicrous for posters below to consider them "lip service" or to make statements such as " what is now called "AP" have been considered merely college preparatory in the past". AP courses are rigorous and the exams are quite extensive and difficult. Ignorance is not an excuse for making false generalization concerning a topic for which you have no knowledge (except on comment boards obviously).

35) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

@Noel Hammatt - textual review of the two first posts here reveals that he decided that two things were important and you decided that three other things were important (actually hurdreds of things, if each world language is a separate thing). Fundamental economics is important, and it decides that the limited nature of time dictates that some things must be more important than others and someone has to decide.

36) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 04/10/2012

@bourbon_soda: Nothing could be further from the truth. I doubt that you can find anything "limiting" in my statement. It was, of course, made in direct response to @rgeraldwallace who does, indeed, want to limit what "counts." I, on the other hand, have no desire to limit education in any way!

37) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

@ Noel Hammatt - aren't you deciding what is "important?"

38) Comment by bourbon-soda - 04/10/2012

To what extent is "AP" a semantic shift resulting from the dumbing down of the first two years of college, not to mention genpop high school? Would what is now called "AP" have been considered merely college preparatory in the past, with the college-prepared student then expected to add 4 years to it in college?

39) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 04/10/2012

What an anti-intellectual view of "what counts" in education. What a sad world to live in when the arts, world languages, and the search for meaning in our lives, and in our world are denied because a few have decided what is "important" for all. Sad.

40) Comment by [e-mail] - 04/10/2012

If AP courses are in Math, sciences, or business then they are worthwhile; offering AP courses should be a leg up for a serious student not just lip service.