Letters: Religion opponent just plain wrong

In a recent letter appearing in The Advocate, a chemist proclaimed that religious beliefs are “stupefying and appalling” to him. Then he loudly proclaimed his final verdict: people holding any such beliefs are “stupid.” His unstated and unjustifiably elevated claim about himself is that he, on the other hand, is educated, intelligent and walking upon the most-rational of grounds.

His letter stands, or rather falls, upon his faith in the unproven “penetrating light of modernity.” Pardon me? Did he really sign that letter? Post-modernism denies enlightenment and denies legitimate rules and truth, so what does he mean by the self-contradictory and meaningless phrase “penetrating light of modernity”?Post-modernism denies the very existence of truth, so how can he proclaim his version of truth with such amazing credulity?

After having exposed the illegitimacy of his philosophical position, he then proceeds to parade before us his amazing ignorance about the Jew Jesus. He laughed and ridiculed because of the supposed absence of corroborating secular documents supporting the New Testament. Oh, the documentation exists, in huge quantities of high quality, and therefore his publicly proclaimed ignorance of them should cause him to be red-faced. I do not doubt that he has not seen them, nor do I doubt that he has not looked for them.

“The penetrating light of modernity.”— posh!

BERT ROBINSON

lawyer

Baton Rouge

Comments

1) Comment by chem - 18/09/2012

Well, Bert. Still waiting for all of that high quality evidence to which you alluded. put up or shut up. posh.

2) Comment by docsquared - 18/09/2012

Santa Claus isn't real. The Easter Bunny isn't real. The tooth fairy isn't real. God isn't real. Deal with it.

3) Comment by nimby? - 18/09/2012

there is religion , then there's the business of religion , which has little to do with the former . for every Jimmy Swaggart there's a thousand mother Teresas , feeding the hungry , healing the sick under the most dire of conditions . it's a shame who gets the most attention ...

4) Comment by potkcalb - 18/09/2012

I am not a religious person. I think the world would be better off without religion. But like it or lump it no candidate and no political party in American can be successful unless they acknowledge "God." That is the practical fact of the matter, unfortunate though it is. Candidates and political parties are fearful of carrying out the spirit of separation of church and state because of the consequences so they acknowledge "God" even if it is only lip service. Yes it is a sad state of affairs.

5) Comment by prbeav - 18/09/2012

@nimby and potkcalb, you are focused.>>Here's the schedule of clergy at the 2012 DNC: Tuesday invocation: Metropolitan Nicholas, Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Detroit Tuesday benediction: Jena Lee Nardella, executive director, Blood: Water Mission Wednesday invocation: the Rev. Vashti Murphy McKenzie, presiding bishop, African Methodist Episcopal Church Wednesday benediction: Rabbi David Wolpe, Sinai Temple in Los Angeles Thursday invocation: the Rev. Gabriel Salguero, president, National Latino Evangelical Coalition Thursday benediction: Cardinal Timothy Dolan, Archbishop of New York, according to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/religion-leaders-democratic-national-convention-2012_n_1846782.html >>The RNC was slightly more inclusive, according to http://www.democraticunderground.com/121843479 : "The convention [opened] with a color guard from the Catholic Knights of Columbus, and [closed] with a benediction from Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the Archbishop of New York and President of the U.S. Conference for Catholic Bishops. Between, Republican delegates will hear prayers from Mormon, Sikh, evangelical and Greek Orthodox religious figures Our election process mocks the First Amendment's establishment clause: theism is established in America.">>>But I do not want to add to this mayhem by including an Imam, an Indian guru, the Dahli Lama one, of the leading atheists, a leading scientist, a guru of fine arts, the pro football commissioner, etc.>>We the People of the United States needs to admit to itself that religion is a cause of radical division and violence and disestablish its involvement in governance, leaving religion a private matter. The First Amendment religion clauses need to be changed to replace "religion" with "thought."

6) Comment by nimby? - 18/09/2012

potkcalb , if we can vote , with conscience , for someone we know not telling the truth what have we become ? both parties are guilty . the most important job in the world has been reduced to a popularity contest . so many qualified individuals not wanting to put themselves , their families thru the "rigors" of a presidential campaign . honesty , yea right , "so help me god" ....

7) Comment by prbeav - 17/09/2012

TigerDragon, you are talking some 80 million Americans living in tyranny due to the imposition of gods into US governance. I think non-theists have been coming out. Some, such as me, are converting from faith in religion to faith in understanding, a slow process. I think many are ready for that choice.>>However, some people perceive no incentive to change--think they can understand and still be religious. And, just as there are honored enthusiasts for music, for painting, for sculpture, for sports, for extreme sports, for dancing, for fiction, for non-fiction, for history, for nature, for geology, for philosophy, you get the picture, I hope there will always be an honored place for enthusiasts of religion, be it theism or not. To be plain, taken as a personal interest, religion can be viewed as an art form for personally encountering the universal unknowns. I never accept an invitation to a gathering wherein I know my wife, who is religious, would not be welcomed by the general conversation she will witness and engage.>>We citizens have in common the opportunity to fulfill the preamble to the US Constitution. Today is the widely uncelebrated Constitution Day. I propose that each September 17 we commemorate We the People of the United States by renewing our duty to fulfill it. My annually revised paraphrase is: "US citizens who want integrity, justice, tranquility, defense, prosperity, liberty, and continuity, govern this nation.”>>We have the opportunity to fulfill the preamble.

8) Comment by TigerDragon - 17/09/2012

Phil and other Christians in on this discussion need to know that atheists and agnostics now make up about 20 to 25% of the American population. In Europe the numbers are much greater. For instance in France more than 50% of the population identifies themselves as having no religion. Those numbers are growing at a record pace all over Europe. In American 25% of high school age children now say they question the existence of god. That number is growing very fast and that is a good sign that we might actually be educating our children to think for themselves and not just believe what they are told. Rest assured that this trend will continue. Just as gays have finally been able to come out of the closet and live in the open, the next great revolution will be of those who don't believe coming out. People are not as dumb as Christian leaders would like to believe. They can't be told the same old lies over and over again and continue to believe them. There is simply too much evidence of the fictitious nature of religion and people are beginning to feel free to express their skepticism. I welcome the decline of religion as it will be a victory for humanity and a step into a greater world let by rational thought and not religious zealots.

9) Comment by phil - 17/09/2012

Chem: I cannot answer that question myself as well as some others probably can. Perhaps you should ask the leaders of some communist countries that exist in the world and see why they dislike religion.

10) Comment by potkcalb - 17/09/2012

nimby no one can successfully run for high office in America without doing obiesance to "God." You know that as well as I do. Is that hypocrisy? Of course it is. Its the price of running for office. The criticism of some Republicans such as Bachman and Santorum is that they appear to advocate theocracy and are willing to adulterate science education with religion, conflating the two and thereby making a mockery of both.

11) Comment by nimby? - 17/09/2012

recently the president and the democratic party said there is a god , truth or vote pandering ? many of the presidents most ardent supporters say it is the latter , agreeing with the thoughts of many conservatives , who are criticized for thinking such , go figure ....

12) Comment by 8point6 - 17/09/2012

@ScotB: Agreed. I've said this before. Have hussein give an "executive order" to round up all Christians in America and banish them to the island of Patmos. Oh, wait. That won't work. he would be getting rid of about 80 percent of the taxpayers. THEN, where would the money come for all of his social programs?

13) Comment by ScotB - 17/09/2012

Another letter on religion, another opportunity for a handful of the same people to express their frustration that the majority of Americans do not share their disbelief and are not as enlightened as they are. Express your frustration, my brothers, and release your hate. I hope you get some peace from your insults and disparaging remarks. Guess what, God loves you anyway! Ain't it cool?

14) Comment by prbeav - 17/09/2012

"DMD" should read "DMJ"

15) Comment by prbeav - 17/09/2012

@DMD. And Harry Potter enthusiasts are not defensive about their interest. They see value in the fiction and have no concern for the opinions of people who do not perceive the value; same with Star Wars enthusiasts. Why can’t Christian enthusiasts and other theists be satisfied with their interest and not try to impose it on others? I think they should consider the aggression involved.>>A prime reason I withdrew from Christianity was the forgiving faces of great, peaceful non-Christians I tried to convert. Those great people helped me realize and accept: About God, I do not know.

16) Comment by prbeav - 17/09/2012

@jdk944: when you write, you could realize that readers detect any weaknesses, for example, restricting your evidence to 1620; therefore do all you can to fortify your position.>>The path of US history involves many elements, for examples: escape from European religious oppression; transfer of the will to oppress into colonial America, beginning with Christian abuse of the natives; victim/beneficiary of the Atlantic slave trade, perpetrated by England, Holland, and Portugal; drastic religious persecutions of fellow colonists, such as the Salem “witch” executions and oppression of Catholics in Maryland; a declaration to England, in effect, our deist god will defeat your Christian god; rescue by France; tyranny against non-theists, so far still in effect; a secular US Constitution that would end tyranny against non-theists; a first Congress that deleted James Madison’s version of freedom of thought from the First Amendment; Christianity’s extended war against the US Constitution; the Christianity-driven Civil War; emergence into the world arena; discovery, slowly coming into realization, that “God bless America,” is an aggressive slogan; recognition by non-theists that if they don’t speak up they will be part of the demise. >>I encourage you to do the work to refute my summary or to assert your alternative, covering pertinent US history beyond 1620 your wish.

17) Comment by prbeav - 17/09/2012

@Bouncer: you could give Polito the benefit of the doubt. >>>>After all, he is reacting to tyranny and unconstitutional legislation! The tyranny, 225 years of relentless pursuit of a Christian theocracy in America has achieved the degradation of the motto, the prayer phrase in the pledge, oaths for elected offices, faith based policy, public vouchers for parochial schools, degradation of global appreciation, and on and on.>>The unconstitutional legislation: forcing creationism into biology class.>>What is an opinion writer supposed to do on the opinion page: hide or share? When a good neighbor decides to share, all good neighbors should celebrate their chance to compare their own opinion.>>Sometimes the truth shines through opinion; it is up to the reader to discern the truth, and he/she has no chance if all he/she wants to do is whine about the way the opinion was presented.>>I recall many embarrassing moments in Sunday school class, when someone shared and the rest of the class expressed disagreement yet shared the doubt.>>I still appreciate your writing and beg your consideration of my suggestion.

18) Comment by chem - 17/09/2012

I may be a little slow today, but how does no religion equate to socialism and communism?

19) Comment by phil - 17/09/2012

I already said this but I am convinced there is a push by a few people in the USA to destroy our value system and get rid of religion and make this a socialistic or communist state with no religion. If you read the Sept. 16 Sunday comics, I think that becomes even more obvious. The large majority in the people in the USA believe in God, and we need to stand up for what we believe in. I will also add that atheists have their rights too, and that is part of our democratic government that separates church and state, but the push by a very few people to make all religion appear stupid is not in the best interest of this nation.

20) Comment by potkcalb - 17/09/2012

RALLEN is not fooling anyone. It is that tiresome old canard of the creationists who, bereft of objective evidence for religion, desperately assert that there is no difference between those who believe and those who do not, that everyone is in the same boat. In no standard dictionary is atheism equated with religion. A similar ploy by creationists are the ludicrous and embarrassing attempts to make religion sound science based with jargon like intelligent design, creation science, guided intervention, irreducible complexity, and the like.

21) Comment by nimby? - 17/09/2012

see previous letter on opinion page . this discussion is an exercise in futility , lot's of wasted words , no one convinced . religion vs atheist , gay vs straight , liberal vs conservative . in each of these both sides bear a striking similarity , very hard to tell the two apart , until they open their mouths . as our president said most of us want to work together , I agree . there will always be those who benefit from stirring the hornets' nest . we should check our priorities . still can't believe they canceled Jersey Shore ....

22) Comment by chem - 17/09/2012

rallen; how so? Do you even know what the definition of religion is? Atheism contains no creeds, no organized institutions asking for 10% of what one makes, there are no "churches", etc. Atheism is the antithesis of religion. Quit making a fool of yourself by spouting such nonense.

23) Comment by RALLEN - 17/09/2012

It is obvious from the atheists' comments that atheism is a religion for them. If only Christians were so fervent, there might not be any atheists.

24) Comment by DMJ - 17/09/2012

Already had my awakening. Sorry. And what about the millions of people (Christians included) who didn't get their miraculous cures and died anyway? Where was your god then? Being mysterious, I take it? Please.

25) Comment by [e-mail] - 17/09/2012

I have a friend who was an avowed atheist; he was also the most honest person I knew and a very good and successful PE who took his oath seriously. About six months after his wife was miraculously cured of a fatal nerve disorder and rose from her motorized wheel chair to walk.shop, and do church work, he had an ephipany and became a Christian. Maybe DMJ has an awakening in his future?

26) Comment by DMJ - 17/09/2012

Just because someone wrote about things that happened in the Old Testament doesn't mean they really happened. There's a whole genre of literature just like this called "fiction." Someone wrote Harry Potter, too. Is there really a Voldemort? Of course not. Then again....who knows, right? I mean...if a man can be born of a virgin, then why can't a little English wizard kid fight a noseless half dead wizard as well? Both scenarios seem equally (im)probable to me. Oh, and I hate to break it to you, Bert, but there are no first hand accounts of the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Even (knowledgeable) believers will concede this point. The gospels were written decades later, after the letters of Paul. In all probability, Paul created the idea of a supernatural Jesus and someone, after having read those letters, wrote their own contributions to the story, as was common custom at the time.

27) Comment by potkcalb - 17/09/2012

You're preaching to the choir jdk944. I think all religions are nonsense, but I don't care whether someone is or is not religious as long as they they make no attempt to incorporate, integrate, or inculcate religion or religious practices or receive official approval or sanction of religion in government agencies like public schools (or secular schools if they are state supported) that are funded by tax payers.

28) Comment by chem - 17/09/2012

Mr. Robinson states, "Oh, the documentation exists, in huge quantities of high quality---" Please Mr. Robinson, show us your high quality evidence. Israel Finkelstein, of the Institute of Archaeology in at Tel Aviv Universtiy, and coworker Niel Asher Silberman did an extensive study into the bibles version of exodus. Do you know what they found and what there conclusion was? They found no evidence of the exodus story and concluded that the flight from Egypt, the wandering in the desert and the conquest of the promised land did not occur. •••• The same is true of jesus. There are no records of his life, let alone his fantastic miracles. His supposed life was not chronicled until at least 30 to 50 years after he was supposed to have died, with many of the stories about him occurring centuries after his supposed death. That is fact, Mr. Robinson. Perhaps you should do some research before you write such drivel. I suspect you are red-faced after that nonsense you wrote.

29) Comment by jdk944 - 17/09/2012

What those like Mr. Polito ignore is the preponderance of history concerning Judeo-Christian religion in this country's development!! I guess he is one of those Educated Elitists that struts around with his humanistic intelligence, looking down upon all of us lowly followers of Christ!! Have the courage to seek the truth on this topic Mr. Polito. "Being thus arrived in a good harbor, and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees and blessed the God of Heaven who had brought them over the vast and furious ocean, and delivered them from all the perils and miseries thereof, again to set their feet on the firm and stable earth, their proper element." Governor William Bradford - 1620, upon landing in this land on the Mayflower.

30) Comment by potkcalb - 17/09/2012

Am I missing something? Post modernism sounds like an oxymoron to me. Thankfully the "penetrating light of modernity" is taking us out of the dark ages of myth, ignorance, and superstition. As to the comments about the Bible, it is a compilation of myths and legends, truths and half truths, fact and fiction.

31) Comment by chem - 17/09/2012

Well, Mr. Bert Robinson, the whole premise of your letter is absolutely wrong. Post modernisim? How could you come to such a stupid conclusion. In the context of the letter, the phrase "penetrating light of modernity" refers to the exponential increase in scientific knowledge and the like amount of evidence that has arisen in the modern world. Post-modernism. Posh!!!

32) Comment by Bouncer - 17/09/2012

Although Mr. Polito might have toned down the rhetoric in his letter, he nonetheless raises some legitimate questions, none of which religious apologists have satisfactorily addressed but have instead more often than not resorted to tu quoque arguments such as the one Mr. Robinson makes. When Mr. Polito speaks of "modernity," he is not speaking about the post-modern school of thought, which is not exactly the same thing. What he is talking about is the move from a primitive society into a more enlightened one, with the advent of thinkers such as Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and the sweeping changes brought about politically, socially, scientifically. I do not think that his "final verdict" is that religious people are "stupid." I think his primary concern is that religious dogma not taint the science classroom. I simply think that he might have gone about making that point in a less hostile way.

33) Comment by gary - 17/09/2012

Good reply Bighug - how true your comment is. Mr. Robinson I hate to rely on a comic strip to make a point - but - check out the Doonebury's strip in the Sunday Advocate - that pretty well sums it up.

34) Comment by Bighug - 17/09/2012

Most of us had religion implanted in our brains when we were too young to understand. That doesn't make a person stupid. It isn't fair to belittle my intellect just because I happen to believe in a God that you don't belive in. Zeus rules!