Letters: ‘Reforms’ not best for schoolchildren

I simply do not accept the rhetoric that any opposition to the Jindal education reforms is not in the best interest of the children and neither should parents. Gov. Bobby Jindal has attached political buzz words and phrases to his controversial education package such as “reform,” “alternative,” “choice,” and “cutting the red tape.” Attaching this terminology to a hastily written set of laws does not mean that it will actually have a positive impact.

Under the new Board of Elementary and Secondary Education changes, parents now have the “choice” to send their children to a school with uncertified teachers and little oversight. The charter schools are supposed to operate without the red tape enforced, ironically, by the same board that implements it.

For my child, having a teacher that has graduated from college with at least a 2.5 GPA, has been trained in a variety of educational practices, and has taken both parts of the Praxis test required for certification is less red tape and more necessary requirements.

Teachers should be trained professionals. The majority of teachers may be the only group of people that want what is best for your child.

Also, consider the motivations to decrease teacher standards for charter schools. Could this be because the schools are so chaotic that teachers will not fill the positions even with the chance of higher pay and less oversight?

This administration is using the educational system as a political pawn in a chess game where students, parents and schools will lose. This administration has successfully implemented a sleight of hand where it distracted the public with a blame game aimed at schools and teachers, who incidentally are following the rules set by the state government. These “reforms”were rushed through the Legislature without proper debate that would have quickly revealed the multitude of flaws and lack of positive “reforms,” “alternatives,” and “choices”? it actually created.

Parents should do their homework. Go to http://www.louisianaschools.net and look at the 2011 school performance scores, specifically the charter schools. Compare them for yourself. Do not allow these politicians to hide behind the children with phrases like “it is what’s best for the children.” Hold them accountable and ensure it actually is what is best for the children.

Bonnie Chelette

teacher

Denham Springs

Comments

1) Comment by Scrooge - 02/07/2012

What business would invest substantial amounts of money in untested, unproven, ideologically driven conjectures and survive?

2) Comment by bourbon-soda - 01/07/2012

"Any job a teacher is asked to do is not an irrational waste of time?" This includes the earlier listed "3-6 dances to chaperon, ridiculous videos to watch per state mandate, ...gym floors to clean, fields to stripe, uniforms to wash, etc?" This is not being run as a rational business, or even on the basis of division of labor that is basic to civilization. Other than implying that teachers may have a vested interest in the status quo, as does almost everyone else in some status quo, my comments are about the system. The new one may not be much, but the old one wasn't, either.

3) Comment by bourbon-soda - 01/07/2012

My earlier statement that the thread was refreshingly free of ad hominem is hereby inoperative.

4) Comment by spqr - 28/06/2012

Bourbonsoda...you are so ignorant in this discussion I can only guess you are making love to the Piyush Jindal plan for education. You don't teach, never have, cannot take a punch, and are probably terrified of the children you think are somehow betrayed by public school teachers. You are probably not qualified to do the job of the teachers you scorn. Any job a teacher is asked to do is not an irrational waste of time, including extracurricular activities...and the private school teachers do them too. Do you have the guts to teach? Show us how. You'll last one day and run home crying like a nIndy.

5) Comment by bourbon-soda - 28/06/2012

A little brevity helps, too. The system was already dysfunctional? Someone must have liked it that way.

6) Comment by 8.3 - 27/06/2012

"at least for anyone without rich parents" exactly the point, notice the qualifiers which must be understood in context with "the proposed new world order" and "therein lies the rub" where political patronage and noblesse oblige are deemed to be ideological "reforms". That remark was intended to distinguish the faulty ideology from the reality of socioeconomic plights in the next statements. The aforementioned two conditions of achievement (among many) are self evident and cynical syntactical manipulation cannot alter their truth. The sad thing is that La. Students score poorly on college qualifying tests (and yes, only those who take the test, one would assume the more ambitious private and public ) score poorly on those tests compared to the rest of the United States. How about this for twisting context and syntactical mumbo jumbo: "anyone without rich parents" .."are self-selected" . Is that good? or would "academic achievement is a determinant of ... "a representative sample of"... "public"... "school students" be better? Or is there some better deflective obtuseness which a masterful practitioner might use to humor and even awe the less attentive? Is that a good non-sequitur? These ideologically driven, dysfunctional "reforms" being jammed into an already dysfunctional system will create vastly more problems than solutions and will need reforming, the less dilettantism and fog and mirrors, the better, but sadly unlikely given the unremarkable history of academic underachievement (and not only academic) in Louisiana, that underachievement being no respecter of circumstances of birth or naturally bequeathed resources. Now that is a non-sequitur. That is enough waste of my time. Tschuss.

7) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

If "they are both true" then academic achievement is a determinant of SE status, making "where one's value is measured by the amount of wealth, earned or not, academic achievement incentives become diminished" is at best a nonsequitur, at least for anyone without rich parents.

8) Comment by 8.3 - 27/06/2012

Therein lies the rub, in the proposed new world order where one's value is measured by the amount of wealth, earned or not, academic achievement incentives become diminished. "Is SE status the greatest predictor of academic achievement, or is academic achievement the greatest predictor of SE status?" these retroversions are not mutually exclusive, they are both true which is why adequate funding and fostering of freely available public schools is such a great and universally beneficial idea. Without a doubt, there are problems but half baked ideological policy for political expediency brought us to this point, which inspires little confidence that doing so again will achieve different results. Didn't Einstein call this insanity? But hey, we got slogans.

9) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

ACT and SAT takers are self-selected rather than a representative sample of either public or private school students. Maybe the private schools are not forced to teach to the test and don't bother to. Is SE status the greatest predictor of academic achievement, or is academic achievement the greatest predictor of SE status?

10) Comment by 8.3 - 27/06/2012

Since there is little objective data, wild conjectures here are just as good, right? So here's one: Episcopal is likely the most expensive private school in Baton Rouge, and based on numbers of National Merit Scholars,Episcopal has more than many other private school. A causation of correlation, perhaps? At Episcopal the amount of funding is just incidental to results? Unfortunately, there is a consistent history based in reality unlike some of the more esoteric ideological fables being made into policy under the delusion that reality will comply.

11) Comment by 8.3 - 27/06/2012

If private shcools are so godd at educating under privileged students, then ther must be overwhelming data, right? Bwahaha

12) Comment by 8.3 - 27/06/2012

"If doubling or tripling teacher salary had a proportionate effect on children's future, then the rich private schools would be doing it." There is nothing in the ACT and SAT data to indicate that private school students in Louisiana are significantly outperforming public school students, sorry. Otherwise, Louisiana private students would be significantly outperforming students nationwide who take the ACT and SAT, unfortunately they loiter permanently at the bottom of the scale. If there is data otherwise, it must be secret (and for what reason?). Private school parents must be satisfied with the "status quo", not a good argument for vouchers. I stand by the statement that our greatest resource is our children and there is a great tradition in Louisiana of ignoring this, hence the bad results we are so good at achieving. However, there is a distinct difference between private school populations and under achieving public school populations and universal widget manufacturing principles will not apply. Go substitute teach for a day in an EBRPSS under achieving school and then try to make that comparison. I do stand corrected in that teacher pay is only one facet of academic achievement that cannot succeed without several others, including parental accountability and involvement, school discipline, and a culture of achievement and learning. The greatest predictor of academic achievement,even in Louisiana’s chronically underachieving totality is, of course, socioeconomic status.

13) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

Why is it illegal to ability group students by test scores? Is Jindal responsible?

14) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

Effective at producing the products you mention. No prohibition against buzzwords by anyone, nor against identifying them.

15) Comment by teacherguy - 27/06/2012

oops sorry...only "reformers" are allowed to use buzz words? Sorry...ineffective neighborhood could be epitomized by Brookstown...shootings, prostitution, drugs, etc....and look at their children's test scores in the neighboring schools...

16) Comment by teacherguy - 27/06/2012

one might ask, how would you reform your school? Well... in my school (junior high)...I see a need to ability group my students (illegal by the way) using test scores. Those needing the most therapy, scoring unsatisfactory or approaching basic, in math should get two hours of it each day. One hour to drill the basics, which effective parents NOW do at home (multiplication facts, addition, subtraction, division), and one hour to apply these basics to real life application. Next, we have reading and English blocks (two hours) that seem to be pretty effective...however, by cutting the poor reading comprehension students from the herd and ability grouping them together, class therapy can begin to expand vocabulary building (something else effective parents have done since birth). Students with stronger comprehension skills would be challenged with higher level interest research projects while lower comprehension students would be forced to watch foreign movies where they must read the subtitles for understanding and do more activity related projects where reading is necessary: travel, putting objects together, fixing things...etc. They need science experiments and field trips. They need field trips to historical, factory, governmental, and geographic places. Field trips are not allowed, for the most part, because it takes away from the time given to other teachers for drill and practice for testing, cost to school/parents, and liability concerns by the school system. Students should take Spanish...but they should have a 1 month boot camp over the summer where they are immersed into a Hispanic society to use what they have learned. Nothing teaches language faster than being stuck in it for long enough to let it set in. Obviously PE needs to actually explore various sports...a new sport should be rotated into the curriculum every 4-6 weeks (Basketball, softball, volleyball, soccer, football, line dancing, ping pong, ultimate frisbee, etc.) NEVER should someone walk into a gymnasium and see students sitting in the bleachers as a whole class! Students should not be allowed to not participate because they just don't want to. Every teacher should get a professional period and a team period. The team period should be used to allow same subject teachers on campus to design effective lessons with each other. The principal should check that teachers are putting into action their own compromises with each other...not something that has been handed down to them from above. You might notice there are 8 hours here...yep, teachers will need more pay for extra time served. LA is already below the southern average here...should not cause much argument to pay more for the work they are doing. I have left the arts and other electives for last...these can be done as a 9th hour...tsk, tsk, tsk...gotta pay for the extra class at the end of the day...but the students who would like to learn musical instruments, paint, sing, homework help, study skills, testing skills, etc. would forgo getting on a school bus and move on to their elective. Moms and dads would have to arrange pick up for them...but by this point, we've been in school from 7:30 am - 4:30pm. We would like to have student free lunch (15 minutes would be fine), morning/recess duty only one day per week, maximum of 25 students per class, pay raises if we are in the top 90% of teachers state wide, protection from being fired for false accusations by students or administrative whims (tenure), a promise of retirement without needing to apply for welfare and food stamps, the ability to grade parental involvement in all things that matter to schooling, financial support for our field trips and Spanish trip. We could add a few more weeks to the school year, but then we would expect to be compensated for working more hours. My mechanic charged me $80/hour for fixing my car the other day...I'm sure most teachers would be happy to convert to that hourly wage for my 8-9 hour business day. For what we do now, that would be $108,000 and with my 8-9 hour proposal we could clear as much as $129,000 a school year (more if we add a few weeks). Since my salary was $49,000 last

17) Comment by teacherguy - 27/06/2012

There has been a concerted effort to attract teachers into the profession for as long as I can remember, pay raises to try to attain the southern average (national is out of reach), scholarships designed for educators, etc....however, since the arrival of BJ's first term...there has been a concerted effort to reduce public school funding while verbally assaulting the occupation for not being able to do more with less, although costs have increased for everything across the board. Attention has been drawn to better test scores, but the joy of learning has been sapped from schooling in the name of accountability. It is considered negative to insinuate that students do not have to complete college/vocational degrees to be productive members of society. It is pessimistic for anyone, God forbid teachers especially, to admit that many families in survival mode place more value on meeting their bills as opposed to going into debt for extended learning. To insist that any teacher is ineffective who can't change the mindset of students coming from such families is irrational to say the least. We have our successes, but the wholesale educational attitude shift that is being asked of our state can not be placed solely on the backs of teachers without making the profession more attractive - not less attractive as is being done now. There is not ONE charter school district, there are out-liars (lol), in the United States that has performed better than public school districts. Some do as well as, but most do worse. This tells me public schools are the key...but instead of chastising, berating, and demoralizing teachers...increase adherence to their professional voice, give them the resources they need (not cut), and quit the top down reform...each school's needs are different.

18) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

Comments in this thread are refreshingly free of ad hominem. I don't know what an "ineffective neighborhood" is. It just sounded like a good buzzword. IMO all neighborhoods are effective at something, just as all systems are perfectly designed to produce whatever result they produce. Maybe a coined word like "maleffective" would be better.

19) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 27/06/2012

what I enjoy is when posters respond to facts with ad hominems and non-sequiturs. How about those buzzwords, bourbon-soda?

20) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

"Ineffective neighborhood" sounds like a new buzzword. Also enjoyed "out-liars."

21) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

Why didn't Govs Blanco, Edwards, and so on, do those things, especially when the state was flush?

22) Comment by teacherguy - 27/06/2012

and bourbonsoda...the ineffective schools happen to be in ineffective neighborhoods. Even the ineffective schools have seen growth over the years, but they have not been able to close achievement gaps because the effective schools have been showing growth as well. What system would be best for school children? As the community of Zachary...and until ALL communities in the state mirror ZAchary...the best system will forever elude us. Also, if the state were able to mirror Zachary...a new best would emerge. The objective should be to improve teacher quality, strengthen standards/pay for who we let in a classroom with our children...not eliminate standards and make pay so low only minimum wage workers would take the job. PS...Note that many of the best performing school districts pay the most, and many of the poorest performing districts pay the least. Correlation? it starts on page 8 http://www.louisianaschools.net/lde/uploads/17776.pdf If the link doesn't work look up annual teacher salary schedules on the LA Dept. of Ed website...there are a couple of out-liars...as usual.

23) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

Re perfection, just pointed out a rhetorical ploy in the headline implying that to be acceptable, reforms must be "best." We did not have "best" in the first place. Who said anything about utopia? Mediocrity looks pretty good by comparison.

24) Comment by teacherguy - 27/06/2012

Bourbon soda...no teacher believes they have reached perfection...teachers REFORM everyday! We can't embrace this reform because it does not include strengthening protections/benefits for the people who are being given credit and expected to lead the state to Utopia. ------------------------------- ----- Good luck with the grossly underpaid/overworked scabs that are hired to fill our places when we retire and/or move on to other occupations. Good luck with company led schools that cut services to kids to bank profits. The children of LA will benefit greatly under their tutelage, I'm sure.

25) Comment by teacherguy - 27/06/2012

Um, rgerald...BJ is trying to privatize education so the state doesn't have to foot the bill any longer. When education becomes a for- profit entity...do you REALLY believe they will funnel the money into the children? Give me a break...

26) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

If doubling or tripling teacher salary had a proportionate effect on children's future, then the rich private schools would be doing it. Instead, pay in private schools is usually lower than in public schools. Attracting the best and then having them chaperone proms and stripe athletic fields would be an irrational use of their time and take them away from sectors of the economy where they are more productive. Also interesting, if it would take 2X or 3X today's salary to attract the best, then we do not now have the best. How would we fire the not-best if we decided to attract the best by doubling or tripling compensation? In addition to all that, the headline is a rhetorical ploy, imposing a standard of perfection on one's adversary. Was the system last year "best for schoolchildren?"

27) Comment by [e-mail] - 27/06/2012

It's nice to hear a clear voice of opposition, but let's make sure of what we are saying. Cutting budges is mandatory and education is no more important in that respect than any other need. We need teachers to be well paid and motivated, but do we need union coordinators, counsel people of all sorts, adjusters, advisers, assistent to the assistents, school board advisors, school board coordinators, meals other than lunch, etc. That's where most of the education dollars go, not into the classroom. Don't be a tool for special interests; the classroom in Louisiana is an inverted pyramid when it comes to the disbursement of money, and that 's what Governor Jindal is trying to overcome.

28) Comment by bchele1 - 27/06/2012

Ok, imagine teachers only made 20k and had to work year around without any benefits. Would these reforms still help children?

29) Comment by hemogoblin - 27/06/2012

It always amazes me that even people who make 6 figure salaries only want to pay minimum wage to the people caring for and educating their children

30) Comment by spqr - 27/06/2012

Hey bourbon soda...don't forget coaching and running clubs after school for an additional 15-25 hours per week. Do not forget Parent-Teacher night, Graduation, Honor's night, 3-6 dances to chaperon, papers to grade at home, fundraising for clubs, parents to phone, ridiculous videos to watch per state mandate, committees to attend, gym floors to clean, fields to stripe, uniforms to wash, etc. You see, sweetie, teachers work about an average of 50-60 hours per week. The time off has already been earned. Much of the above duties are without pay, but expected. Oh, and the fights to break up and the gang culture.

31) Comment by cbelse1 - 27/06/2012

@bourbon-soda: The salary schedules are different in every district/parish. While it is possible for a teacher to make $45K in his/her first year in some districts, others are not as fortunate. There is nothing more demeaning for a teacher than to have the public treat them as if they're lazy and entitled. The pay is designed to relate to the work environment. Like others have suggested, take a day and go sub in a school.

32) Comment by 8.3 - 27/06/2012

The only thing is "How many bachelors degree workers' work with large groups of children all day long? On the surface these conditions might appear to be cushy but teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there. Go substitute teach for a day in a middle school. Not to mention that these are children, not manufactured widgets. Political and economic expedience (prudence and thoughtful consideration, yes, things that are severely lacking in the political fads of the moments) should have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the education of children. Additionally, as research substantially proves, teachers are the second most profound influence on young children's lives so pay should be doubled, even tripled in order to attract the best, in true free market fashion. In the long term, what capital is greater and of more potential value than human children? If there is a greater investment, then maybe the illuminati among us should marginalize the education of children in order to foster that greater profit. But at least it would be nice to let everyone in on the secret. Personally, I reject all objectivism for it is evil and contrary to the ideals of a vast majority of the world's religions and to a justification for the continuance of the human race. Evidently, many are confused about this.

33) Comment by bourbon-soda - 27/06/2012

I am not able to find the figures in succinct form at a government website, but http://certificationmap.com/states/louisiana-teacher-certification/ states that elementary and seconday teachers earn >$46 and $48K respectively with fifteen weeks vacation. How many bachelors degree workers outside of engineering and the like with a 2.5 GPA earn that? I would be protecting my turf, too. Oh, and retirement.

34) Comment by teacherguy - 26/06/2012

I would like to add that voucher and for-profit non-public charter schools will be shielded from showing their accountability scores on the website you link. They are discussing having some sort of measures put in place by August 1, but all evidence suggests it will not use the same evaluation tools as the public schools. What that means, in plain English, is that parents will put their children in these non-public charter schools and will be virtually blind to whether or not the school is as good as, better, or worse than the public schools. For those that would say these schools will have to close as parent leave them are overlooking the loss of education in those students' lives until the school is shut down....and the millions, into the billions, of tax dollars that will be flushed into them until they are abandoned by the "parent choice" accountability. If the desire is to better education today because we can't wait, then the same rigorous evaluation placed on public schools should be placed on the non-public receiving students and tax dollars. Teachers are not afraid of competition between public and non-public schools...we just want fair assessments so we can compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Teachers prefer not to be evaluated individually, because we prefer to work together to improve the learning of the entire school...not hide what makes us successful so we can get a better rating than the teacher next door. Think about it, if a teacher on my campus is struggling and I have effective methods that could help her...but if she uses my methods and her students score better than mine...I have just opened the door for my own dismissal. Teachers will naturally become less supportive of each other in this "reform" to better education.