Voucher changes under discussion

Despite insisting that a challenge to Louisiana’s expanded voucher law will fail, state Superintendent of Education John White said Thursday he has talked with plaintiffs in the lawsuit about changing the way the program is financed.

But Scott Richard, executive director of the Louisiana School Boards Association, which is one of the plaintiffs, said his group remains opposed to any funding method that results in school aid dollars going to students attending private or parochial schools.

Richard said his organization is “going to move forward with the litigation.”

The issue surfaced during an hour-long briefing that White held on details of the annual public school funding request that will be decided by the state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education on March 8.

The proposal, which is called the Minimum Foundation Program, or MFP, is the key funding mechanism for 712,000 public school students.

The plan would freeze state aid for public school students for the fifth year in a row except to provide financing for additional students.

However, the future of state aid for vouchers — they are payments for some students to attend private and parochial schools — was one of the key topics during the briefing.

The Legislature last year approved a bill that expanded the state’s voucher program statewide.

About 5,000 students who attended C, D and F public schools, and who met income rules, are using the aid to attend private and parochial schools.

But 19th Judicial District Judge Tim Kelley, of Baton Rouge, ruled on Nov. 30 that the law represented an unconstitutional diversion of state dollars designed for public schools. Attorneys for the state appealed the ruling, which is set for a hearing in the state Supreme Court on March 19.

White told reporters that he has met with LSBA officials about making changes in how voucher students are financed, which could dampen the impact of any court ruling.

Under current rules, dollars formerly reserved for public schools are sent directly to private and parochial schools for vouchers, which are supposed to pay for tuition and mandatory fees.

Under White’s proposal, school districts would collect those state and local education dollars, just as they would for students attending traditional public schools.

However, officials of those districts would have to agree to use part of the money for those students authorized to get vouchers.

Local school districts could keep the difference rather than sharing the savings with the state, which is required now.

White said that would mean significant savings for local school districts since vouchers cost an average of $5,100 per year compared with about $8,500 to attend a public school.

“It is a good deal for school boards and it would help ease the anxiety of parents,” he said, a reference to mothers, fathers and guardians of voucher students unclear about the future of the program.

“It seems like a win-win,” White said.

But Richard, whose group represents 645 local board members statewide, said the proposal has problems. “We are going to move forward with the litigation because we think Judge Kelley’s rationale was clearly in alignment with the constitution,” he said.

“And no system of funding that diverts money from the MFP to private entities is in the best interests of public school students at this point in time,” Richard said.

The Louisiana Federation of Teachers, another plaintiff in the voucher challenge, also criticized White’s plan. “This is a sad attempt to sidestep a clear constitutional mandate, and we hope that the Legislature does not fall into the trap,” LFT President Steve Monaghan said in a prepared statement.

BESE’s funding request, if approved as outlined by White, would total $3.46 billion, up from $3.42 billion in the current school year.

The panel’s proposal will be sent to the Legislature, which begins the 2013 regular session on April 8.

Lawmakers can only accept or reject the plan but cannot change it.

The current voucher program costs about $22 million per year.


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Comments (33)


1) Comment by Veryconcerned - 03/03/2013

YES VOUCHER PROGRAMS= Parental Choice!! All public schools are not bad and all private schools are not good But it should be up to the parent to choose what system is working for her child That's why I believe now that in certain schools you have one set of students who excel in a certain school and another group that is below the totem pole. Each child learns differently and what school is good for this child may not necessarily be good for that child. It doesn't matter if you all agree or disagree about this, I AM THE PARENT AND I WANT MY CHOICE ALSO, You all don't know what concerned parents go through with their own child. I love public schools but when a public school tell me they don't have the time to work with my child due to helping other kids, then I need a choice!!! There are many perceptions and scenarios of why this program is not good, but I AM HERE TO TELL YOU THAT IT'S WORKING FOR MY CHILD. And you can not judge me because I know what's best for MY CHILD AND I WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT UNTIL MY CHILD GETS A QUALITY EDUCATION!!

2) Comment by 1ryben - 01/03/2013

Paging Dr. Shadow, Dr. Shadow. Paging Dr. Jeff Shadow.

3) Comment by zealer99 - 01/03/2013

The voucher law is clearly unconstitutional. A simple change to where it is funded outside of the MFP would fix that problem. Everything else is a matter of opinion.

4) Comment by foldgers - 01/03/2013

One more point, I guess my assumption that private schools are better comes from the people I know who have kids in private schools. Maybe because of the money they invest in private schools makes them want their children to do well that much more. Kind of how if your 17 year old buys a care with money they have earned, they will treat it 100 times better than if the car was just given to them. I see all the parents in those schools have their children in almost every activity possible, football, soccer, baseball, whatever. And I am only speaking form experience here and what I have seen, so I know there is a good chance it does not apply to all, but it just seems that parents who have to pay a ton for education make sure their children are doing well in school a little more than those parents who do not pay for education. Just an observation I have made. My mom the exception of course... ;)

5) Comment by foldgers - 01/03/2013

1ryben, thank you as well for not assuming I was trying to be a smart butt. I was wanting clarification on this and why it is bad or good. Through points you and Suzanne made, I can see the bad with this system now as well. Just a disclosure here, I went to public schools my whole life. Mainly in the magnet schools. Never gifted, but magnet. I did very well and when I started LSU, through my studying in high school, I was able to place out of 12 hours of classes during spring testing. Saved me a semester or more in the end. I did receive a great education in public schools, but I still believe it came down to one thing, my mom. She was a teacher in the public school system as well. She was on me all the time about my homework, no tv until it was all done. 1 hour of tv/video games a night during the week, unless we had a family movie night. She would review my work, my reports and quiz me on stuff I had tests on the next day. Looking back, even though I hated it back then, I can never thank her enough for everything she did for my education. Finding the time to cook dinner every night, grade her students' work(sometimes I got to help) and to also review my work almost every night. And nights I barely had homework and no studying to do, I was either outside until dark or in my room playing with legos or something that brought on imagination, another important factor in learning I believe. At dark, during the week, we had to be in the house or back yard. There was no walking the streets during the week after dark. If I got in trouble at school, I was punished hard. If I got a bad grade, there went my TV privileges. She was tough, but right. If parents, and I know it doesn't apply to all parents, would actually take interest in their child's education, be a part of the school somehow, not let them play xbox all night or on their twitter accounts and instead make them do their work and check over it AND especially take sides with the teachers when their child is disciplined instead of making the child believe the teacher is wrong, then I can promise you that all schools would be graded B or better. I know there are some single mothers who work all night and are unable to keep an eye on their children all night, but still make sure all the work was done and done correct, if not, wake the kids up early and make them fix it. Something... the teachers can not, and I say this not as an insult to teachers, they can NOT do their jobs without the help of parents. Long post, I am sorry.

6) Comment by crazycajun - 01/03/2013

No matter what's said or argued, it all comes down to Republicans realize there's a hell of a lot of money to be made of government services. Rupert Murdock said as much when he made the comment,"We need to take a look at public education in this country.That's at least five hundred billion dollars just there to be made." You can argue the private can do it better and cheaper bu tif that's the case why would they want it so bad if there's so little profit to be had?

7) Comment by 1ryben - 01/03/2013

Thanks for the clarification Mr. Hammatt. I believe my statement still bares fruit that is you choose the students, you choose the results. @rodeo yes, it is another exams of Jindal and company trying to circumvent the state constitution. How, in any way is this acceptable? Why does it seem like our legislators are so silent on this? Fear? I do disagree that the quality of education offered is not important. It is important if you can show that there are falsehoods and outright lies being said about one group to perpetuate a crooked agenda. These policies affect communities, families, livelihoods. Schools are not just factories.

8) Comment by GardenVariety - 01/03/2013

White's "reconsideration" is as close to an admission of being wrong as the Jindal admin is able to get. (I wonder how many State Dept heads rolled in the lead up to this. Why the hundreds of State Dept folks and educators who've been fired or "reassigned" for even mildly questioning Guvvy Bubby's anti-education agenda don't band together to mount a real resistance is dumbfounding. You know who you are, and the admin would mess their pants if you openly informed the LA public and stood against them.) Add this reconsideration to the other odd-ball, high-school-debate-team double-speak coming out of Stoopid Parti's Ed chief, the apparent becomes obvious: the admin knows that the half- baked ALEC-written education charade is nothing more than a line in Stoopid's resume, as he tries to become Chancellor of the Galactic Republic and then Emperor. They hope they can keep the scam going just long enough--until 2014, when the next presidential cycle kicks into full gear. Then we'll be kicked to the curb before we can put on our cheap, red high heals and stuff our measly two dollars into our brassieres.

9) Comment by phil - 01/03/2013

Noel Hammatt - Thanks and I imagine there are several people who do NOT enjoy my comments on several topics - but I am still here and intend to stay here. You know more about the actual school system than many here do, including me. I tend to stick to the main principles and I imagine you really know the details. Keep up the comments - we all need to know what is going on.

10) Comment by BRmoderate - 01/03/2013

Take it from me folks. A teacher who has worked in private and public districts. Private education does not always mean a better education. Many public school districts have course offerings and clubs that privates cannot provide. If you are considering using vouchers for your kid...don't do it on the blind faith that a private must be better. Also, a lot of these voucher schools do not have licensed/certified teachers for all of their classes.

11) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 01/03/2013

@1ryben: Actually there are very good studies comparing public versus private and parochial schools. When comparing students with similar backgrounds, public schools do slightly in reading and math at the fourth grade level. At the 8th grade level, Private and parochial schools do slightly better in reading, and public schools do slightly better in Math. No large differences. How do you explain large numbers of students in some private schools doing very well? It is not the school. It is simply that they are able to pick and choose a wealthier, more resourced group of students. Most of academic achievement is due to what takes place OUTSIDE of schools. By far.

12) Comment by RODEO CLOWN - 01/03/2013

The issue here is one of legality. Is it legal for the state to employ constitutionally mandated funds for the public school system to support a voucher system benefiting private school systems? The judicial reality, until further review by the LA Supreme Court, is the voucher system has been deemed illegal. The voucher system fails to comply with the Louisiana constitution. “Bobby-tye” knows such but want accept the decision. In his typical “my way or the highway” approach, Jindal has elected to spend additional state monies in search of a decision favorable to his goal. The quality of education afforded by either system is not at issue. Approaching this issue from a “this dog is better than that dog” standpoint serves only to confuse the issue and fails to address the reality of the given situation.

13) Comment by 1ryben - 01/03/2013

As for the topic of the article....ditto what Mr. Hammatt said. Oh and one thing I forgot. The discipline issue is a thorny one. Expelling kids is a pretty radical step. Alternative schools, boot camp style schools, boarding schools, would be alternatives for those students. I feel we have to maybe make a choice, either find a way to educate these kids or we just wind up incarcerating these kids. Either way, you'll spend lots of tax dollars. I'd rather try education.

14) Comment by spqr - 01/03/2013

You got it, Suzanne. Thank you. Private schools are VERY selective about which student they will not teach. Public schools teach all comers, regardless of issues-and there are many that are as downright scary as they are disruptive and public school teachers can do nothing but deal with those students the best they can.

15) Comment by hoffmase - 01/03/2013

So he's proposing to keep the approximate $3000 difference for each voucher kid. Hell, why doesn't he take $3000 for each kid in each school district that attends private school?

16) Comment by 1ryben - 01/03/2013

@foldgers, thank you for your willingness to discuss and truly understand what's going on. Suzanne did answer some of your concerns and were right on. I'll address the failing schools myth and the private schools are better myth as well. I've taught in both public schools and private (Catholic) schools. Everywhere I've been required certification as a prerequisite for a teaching job. So both were even there. Honestly, from my experience each school was a wash as to the quality of teachers. Some great, some terrible, most very good. The difference was that the private schools chose their students. When you choose the students, you can choose the results. The private schools were free to do what was best for he student, free of the (some) red tape. In the public school, with the endless top- down mandates we are not free to do what is best for he kids. We have to do and teach what we are told. By the upper management. >>>>private schools are not given school letter grades. How do you know they are better than the local public schools? Is it because they said so? Who said so? Perception is different than reality. Parents perceive that the private schools are better because its human nature. They choose to send their kids there they put a high value on their decision making skills and that value gets transferred to the school. Lets not add that the public schools are constantly labeled failures in the press though no one knows or explains how or why they receive that grade. >>>In my experience, opinion, there is little to no difference between public and private school teachers or teaching (curriculum choices are a different subject) . The difference is in the student populations. If private schools were to teach the same population as the public schools do, they would get the same results.

17) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 01/03/2013

@phil: I enjoy your comments. I was wondering, what if the whole purpose of public education was NOT an individual right, to be used like another hand-out or voucher, but a PUBLIC GOOD, to be overseen as being the in best interests of all the public, and not just based upon the whims of a few who might make choices based upon goals and ideals that are not at all in keeping with a republican form of government. As for this particular issue, I can't believe that what is being proposed is to take an unconstitutional act, that is, having MFP money going to any schools other than public schools (Yes, the constitutional actually says "shall" and "public schools."), and simply passing on the unconstitutional act to locally elected School Boards. YOU fund the schools through your MFP distributions! Yes, I can see how that avoids the problem. NOT!

18) Comment by phil - 01/03/2013

Perhaps there is one solution for vouchers that would be fair to EVERY student (and taxpayers). After all, any program that is related to public schools should treat ALL students exactly the same - right? Give EVERY student a voucher. Of course, then the voucher system probably starts to look like the system that is already in place, other than the tax money is just handed out in a different way. I personally think the voucher system is just being set up to make some folks money. How about just FIX the existing public schools.

19) Comment by foldgers - 01/03/2013

Suzanne, THANK YOU! I hope you were not being snappy at me as it seemed. I honestly was not thinking about most of those points. But, I will comment on one of your points, "private schools do not have to meet state standards" comment. Well, that is not really a strong argument in my opinion as most public schools are C D F graded. As it stands now, would agree that private schools are better than most public ones? As far as you other points, well said and thank you again. Oh I will say one more thing, one more problem with public schools is that they HAVE to take those disruptive students, who disrupt class for everyone else, who disrupt other students' learning. It is hard to teach when a teacher has to spend 50% of their time on one student. And the fact that the schools can not discipline said students, as they were allowed to in the days of the pilgrims up until the 70's, maybe 80's, is another reason there are so many disruptive students. If a student is that disruptive that a school will expel them, then the parents should, in my opinion, pull out that belt until they act accordingly in school. But, yes, I do see your other points.

20) Comment by CurvaciousJ - 01/03/2013

As a parent of students in the public school system, as well as the spouse of a public school teacher (former La. Teacher of the Year), I consider myself well versed in this debate. I've seen a measurable decline in the "parental choices" available as Jindal's and BESE's policies have been implemented. Gone are the days when a high school student can fill a schedule with rigorous academic electives - the schools don't have enough funds to offer any academic electives other than remediation. Adding insult to injury, the money the state is stealing from our public schools is diverted to private institutions who then use our tax dollars to provide a "parental choice" educational curriculum including: science courses that debunk evolution and support the existence of the Loch Ness monster; history courses that teach most plantation owners were nice to their slaves and that the Trail of Tears was a way to introduce Christianity to Native Americans. If I could go back in time, the parental choice I would make would be to move out of Louisiana.

21) Comment by SuzanneMS - 01/03/2013

Sounds to me as if Bobby and Johnny are running scared.

22) Comment by SuzanneMS - 01/03/2013

What you're missing, foldgers, is that private schools will not take special needs students, students who are not performing at the level they expect, students who are disruptive, any student who does not meet whatever requirement that the school wants to institute. Private schools can also expel any student at any time. Who will educate those students when there are no public schools? What you're also missing is that private schools do not have to meet state standards for curriculum -- they can teach what they want to, and not teach what they do not want to -- or for performance. Students in private schools do not take the LEAP. If LEAP is meaningless, then why are public schools required to administer it? What you're missing is that teachers in private schools do not have to be state certified. They do not have to have any educational training at all. What you're missing is that private schools can reduce enrollment or even close at any time for any reason, leaving a community with no recourse. There is a reason that public schools were instituted almost the moment that the Pilgrims set foot on Plymouth Rock. And before you suggest that the state could regulate private schools -- no, it couldn't. That would make them public schools.

23) Comment by foldgers - 01/03/2013

Just a thought here as I am not too sure how this program works. But, the state and local gov'ts pay for the vouchers for students to go to private schools. Before the vouchers, the state and local governments paid for the students to go to public schools, right? According to an MFP chart from 2011, it costs between $6,729 and $10,474 per student to attend public schools in Louisiana. Government money. Now, the state and local governments are pay for the vouchers instead and I would think most of the smaller ptivate schools are less than that or heck, maybe even the same. But, let's just say that all students eventually went to the voucher program and all went to private schools. Same cost per student, but then the state could sell the old public schools to private companies, decreasing the costs of upkeep for local and state government for hundreds of schools around the state and not to mention the money saved by not having public school teachers and their retirements and benefits. Not saying they are bad teachers, but if all schools became private, then chances are, those teachers, who are actually good at their jobs, would be hired by the new private schools. Right? I am not making a case for this either way, I am just truly asking. Please tell me what I am missing, I honestly want to know. I am not being sarcastic, I am not being funny, I just am trying to see why so many people are against this program because I apparently do not see the problems. And before you come at me saying tax dollars to put kids in religious schools, I would think that if all schools were private, that some would not be religious. Many private colleges out there that are not religious in nature.

24) Comment by LawyerDan65 - 01/03/2013

The original voucher program was paid for from State General Fund dollars and did not impac tthe Constitutionally dedicated MFP. But the State's finances are in such a mess that they could not sustain the program, much less expand it, wihtout unconstitutionally diverting MFP dollars. If the State wants to simply change the voucher program (and the course choice program) back to the funding mechanism that it used for the prior 5 years, the litigation goes away.

25) Comment by morellok2 - 01/03/2013

I have one question that I have not seen answered yet. Will the state or will the local school districts have to come up with the money to pay for all students to take the ACT test that will be used in the formula to determine the schools' letter grades? Since our lower performing students do not generally take this test now, the state average will surely drop once this is implemented.

26) Comment by teacherguy - 01/03/2013

Why were public services invented in the first place? Because private services could not and/or would not provide adequate services to the state's poverty-stricken and rural residents in bulk format. Vouchers/charters are cannibalizing public funds from public schools and the vouchers/charters are allowed to close up shop at short term intervals. Public schools will be there next year, NO MATTER WHAT! Some say this "stability" has created complacency in teachers and a "dumbing down" in students and in some cases that may be true...but for the most part....I've seen public school teachers tackle the 9-headed Hydra (apathy, illiteracy, poverty, poor discipline, paperwork, attrition, political correctness, mainstreaming, etc.) before lunchtime on a daily basis. What legislator can sleep at night knowing they are starving out the most essential services in their districts (public schools)? If our schools are really so terrible, why are immigrants from around the world risking their lives and fortunes to put their children in our public school's empty desks, and in some instances pushing our "lazy" kids out of their desks and taking their spots? Could it be that the rest of the world sees something worthwhile in our "terrible" public education system that we can't?

27) Comment by Being_Stupid - 28/02/2013

Vouchers = Public Education Reform

28) Comment by Being_Stupid - 28/02/2013

Tear down the wall.

29) Comment by Being_Stupid - 28/02/2013

Union Bosses leave them kids alone, All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

30) Comment by Being_Stupid - 28/02/2013

Noel Hammatt = Obstructionist = Another Brick in the Wall

31) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 28/02/2013

@jwarre3n: You are correct, sir. Of course, there is no way we can catch up with all that The Advocate has missed. We are not full-time journalists, after all. And the cost of the unconstitutional vouchers... and... goes on and on, doesn't it!

32) Comment by jwarren - 28/02/2013

Maybe the spammer's roommate's mom is a new online course provider for John White. But my real purpose was to say to Noel Hammatt, well said, but you left out the increasing unfunded mandates the state is piling up on districts while taking away money, like the cost of the infrastructure to meet state requirements for the new on line testing. This includes no only new computers but increased bandwidth and all the things that go along with it. Some districts are spending millions to meet this unfunded mandate from a Republican governor while he takes away money from the same districts.

33) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 28/02/2013

For the record, since Will Sentell seems incapable of getting the message out, FUNDS FOR VOUCHERS ARE PAID BY STATE AND LOCAL FUNDS, IN THE SAME RATIO AS THEY STATE AND LOCAL FUNDS ARE USED IN THE MFP. For EBR, for example, EBR pays a larger share than the state. As for savings, there ARE NO NO SAVINGS. IN A REAL BUT COMPLEX SYSTEM, the loss of a few students to a voucher school (called parental choice by the reformers) leads to the loss of choice to hundreds of other parents remaining in the school, because of the very real financial impacts of the loss of funds, while the costs do not disappear. I'd be happy to debate these in detail with any of the "reformers" and their well-paid patsies. Are they afraid the truth will come out?