School counselors protest White plan

Public school counselors said Thursday their education role would be radically diminished or even eliminated under a plan by state Superintendent of Education John White to give local districts more flexibility.

Under current rules, high schools are supposed to have one counselor for every 450 students.

White’s proposal would eliminate that requirement.

A committee of the state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education is set to take up the issue on Tuesday at 10 a.m.

Cathy Smith, president of the Louisiana School Counselors Association, said counselors play a vital role in assisting students and that abolishing the staffing requirement would hurt the state’s bid to improve public education.

“If a counselor is doing what they are supposed to be doing, they are making a huge difference,” said Smith, a counselor at Hathaway High School in Jennings.

Critics contend that White’s proposal would hurt students by relying on untrained officials to handle duties long done by counselors.

They said that, without the current staffing requirement, some school districts will eliminate counselors in favor of football coaches or other spending. “And I think it would be devastating,” Smith said.

High school counselors are supposed to assist students on course selections, make sure they are on schedule to graduate, and assist in college and career options.

In some districts they interpret tests, grapple with student disciplinary problems and oversee student records, among other duties.

Frank Phinney, a counselor at Walker Freshman High School, said White’s plan is a drastic change and one that would damage public schools. “It is just a complete disregard for our training, the role that we play, and I think it is just wrong,” Phinney said.

Even the current mandate — one counselor for every 450 students — is too lax, he said. “Even that is well above the national recommendation, which is like 250 to 1,” Phinney said.

White, asked for comment about the criticism, issued a prepared statement.

The superintendent said counselors provide “invaluable services” that assist students in their personal development. “But schools should be able to use partnerships, vendors, part-time staff and others, along with full-time counselors, to achieve (goals) in the way that is best for their students,” according to the statement.

Smith, who has exchanged emails with White about her concerns, noted that counselors are required to have advanced degrees.

“They are looking at a team of people to meet the needs,” Smith said. “Unfortunately, these people aren’t trained.”

Ending the staffing rule would also open the door to eliminate counselors, she said.

“To me that is what it is,” Smith said of White’s plan.

The state has about 2,300 school counselors, state education officials said.

The change is included in the superintendent’s plan to overhaul the state handbook for school administrators, which is called Bulletin 741.

White has said his proposal would allow local school districts to set their own academic calendar and allow students to earn credit for subjects where they can show proficiency rather than attending the class.

BESE leaders say they expect the plan to win approval next week.

Counselors contend that the only BESE members who have shown sympathy for their concerns are Lottie Beebe, of Breaux Bridge, and Carolyn Hill, of Baton Rouge.

Neither could be reached for comment.

Michael Lefort, who lives in Cutoff, recently retired after 33 years as a school counselor.

“The potential negative impact for students will become staggering,” Lefort said in an email when asked about the proposed change.

The role of counselors in public high schools has been debated at BESE off and on since 2007.

In the past, critics have said, counselors were routinely assigned odd tasks, such as prom planning and organizing the 4-H Club, and that doing so hurt their ability to help students.

But officials said that the state redefined the role of counselors a few years ago to follow a national model aimed at improving student achievement.

“And the whole counseling phenomenon that we were excited about is going to go by the wayside,” Smith said.

Comments

1) Comment by MBW - 12/01/2013

There is SOME wisdom in the proposal. If you run a small school, for example, you may not have the demand for a full-time counselor...this law would allow you to hire someone part-time or to share the counselor between two schools. That said, I think there should certainly be a requirement that school counselors be licensed professionals.

2) Comment by MBW - 12/01/2013

I think school counselors are essential. But let's all take a deep breath: this plan simply allows principals the choice...if your school drops its counselor, the blame is squarely with the principal. Direct the ire at him or her.

3) Comment by MBW - 12/01/2013

I do agree, however, that many principals often assign random tasks to school counselors. If you're going to have a counselor on staff, use them that way. A school where I used to work used the counselor as a testing coordinator during test time.

4) Comment by MBW - 12/01/2013

Let's also not forget that guidance counselors are very often the ones who connect student with college scholarships and other valuable resources.

5) Comment by Scrooge - 12/01/2013

"There was a time when there were NO COUNSELORS in public schools" ..."we have gotten by without guidance counselors from the dawn of the species" are y'all talking about the past times when people didn't open fire in elementary schools with assault rifles and 30 round clips because every Tom, Dick and Harry didn't own one? There was a time when there were no public school for the majority of people either, just the well off, that doesn't necessarily mean that the times were better. There was a time where people wore loincloths and lived short brutish lives and according to the more befuddled revisionists, were eaten by dinosaurs. There was a time when there was NO CIVILIZATION as well. The point is?

6) Comment by cbelse1 - 11/01/2013

Zealer99: I'll let you break that news to the students who are practically beating down my door to see me at school. And I'll let you tell that to the parents who have my cellphone # on speed dial for when their child has suicidal thoughts on the weekend. And I'll let you tell that to the teachers who have my cellphone # on speed dial for when my students with explosive behavior disorders "flash out" in class. Yes, it's true that there haven't always been "guidance counselors"--a term that we actually hate- -but circumstances have changed. A lot of children and teens today are highly desensitized to violence against others, have few (if any) coping skills, but still want a safe place where they can work through their issues. We can blame parents or blame teachers or blame video games or whatever you want to blame. The fact is that kids today need mental and behavioral support, and schools are often the only place where they have access to this. My school has just over 500 students, and I've had individual sessions with almost 100 of them, while numerous others are in counseling groups. This is a service that the students want, not because it gets them out of class, but because it helps them. I agree that a child's success begins at home, but what do you say to those whose parents choose to beat them with a broom handle until they bleed? Or to the student whose parents say that they can go live with someone else because they [the parents] don't care anymore? These are situations that I deal with daily. I'm not asking for a medal; I'm just asking that the powers that be give students access to the services they want and need. And if you think this is my attempt to "scream like a little girl" about my job, I can easily get a school counseling job in a state that DOES see the need for and advantage of having counselors in schools, but I would like to be able to give back to my home state.

7) Comment by Wendarooski - 11/01/2013

@traveler: The school librarian mandate is also to be eliminated.

8) Comment by zealer99 - 11/01/2013

People need to lighten up a little, we have gotten by without guidance counselors from the dawn of the species to just a few years ago. Neither guidance counselors, nor schools, nor villages can substitute for parental guidance. I suppose if my job was being phased out, I would scream like a little girl, too.

9) Comment by realworker - 11/01/2013

If Teach for America was supplying the counselors would John White be so quick to dismiss them? I'm sure that someone having a degree in Counseling where he/she has to work with students, learn the laws regarding OCS and child protection and be the test administrator and occasional class room teacher can easily be replaced by "partnerships, vendors, part-time staff." And in case you weren't sure, that is sarcasm. Our school would fold without the counselor.

10) Comment by Bouncer - 11/01/2013

@civitas: Pay no heed. He cannot simply make a post and let it go but instead has to say the same thing, with somewhat altered vocabulary and sentence structure, 3 or 4 times. He's a stereotypical Bible thumper who thinks the solution to everything is a big, stinking dose of Jeeeesus. There's nothing wrong with him that some Thorazine and a few electroshock treatments couldn't cure.

11) Comment by civitasiveritas - 11/01/2013

@TommyRucker: I am totally confused... is there any logic to your rants below? Do you actually have any data to share with the readers? About all I can see is that you have no clue about education, you hate democrats and those who don't believe in God, or at least your version of God, along with Obama and public education, and you somehow think exclamation points will increase your volume on here. Anyone else help me out with this Tommy Rucker? Oh, and Tommy, when there were not counselors in public schools there was no Mall of Louisiana, but, there have always, throughout history, been young teenage mobs running around. Perhaps you received a rather sheltered education at private schools? Missed history classes?

12) Comment by TommyRucker - 11/01/2013

Public education's chronic answer to all the chronic and worsening problems in this country has always been-give us more money!!! The self serving members of the public education system have been following the democratic party mob model for decades and know the way to self themselves and ensure more money in their pockets is to increase their numbers (voters) and this sort of model will be followed until it destroys itself and everything even close to it. If there is any chance of reversing this mess, radical action is necessary and it is needed now, it cannot wait any longer, otherwise the change will come (and it will come) after great pain.

13) Comment by BlueRidge - 11/01/2013

I'm sorry, I misspelled crisis.

14) Comment by BlueRidge - 11/01/2013

What this article and following comments do not recognize is that reducing or eliminating counselors from schools will increase public safety risk and make schools less safe. For a lot of kids school counselors are the only mental health professionals that they have access to or feel comfortable talking with because of the relationship that they have established with them through other interactions at school. School counselors are uniquely qualified to recognize signs of mental instability and handle a mental health crises. In light of recent national events and the subsequent discussion regarding mental health services, we cannot afford to lose anymore mental health professionals. Gov. Jindal has already made significant cuts to mental health services and more cuts will only place our students and public at greater risk.

15) Comment by TommyRucker - 11/01/2013

There was a time when there were NO COUNSELORS in public schools and things like young teenage mobs running around the Mall of Louisiana did not occur. Maybe we should honestly ask and seek the truth as to why all the problems are occurring in spite of counselors in the public schools and all the billions of dollars that have been and are continued to be poured into public schools. The problem as well as the answer goes way beyond public school counselors but the answers are going to be uncomfortable and with all the political correctness and self serving voters dominating this country today, it is very unlikely that the truth is ready to surface.

16) Comment by TommyRucker - 11/01/2013

Our public schools are nothing more than glorified (and some not so glorified) baby sitting institutions that we are trying to replace the family unit with. It won't work as it is not intended to be such but we keep trying to put round pegs in square holes and then after a brief period of wondering what is happening, we always seem to run to the democratic party mob principle of 'blame someone else'. The reasons for this mess are obvious but we are always looking for an easier, softer way, a popular way, a secular way, a irresponsible way and when it does not work (as it never really has in the history of the world), we blame someone else-get a scapegoat or even better, we USE the chaos or criss to extract and/or extort more money out of the system.

17) Comment by TommyRucker - 11/01/2013

The only real question should be is it effective and if effective, is is really worth the $$$. The real problem is not counselors but a destruction of the family unit and an abandonment of God and you can have one counselor per student and if this abandonment and destruction of the family unit continues, it will NOT work and will be a waste of money. We have a a lot of proof today that many of these secular ideas DO NOT WORK, yet we refuse to honestly look at them and accept the truth because if we do we are going to have to admit we were WRONG and we will actually have to change our ways in a very uncomfortable manner; uncomfortable in the short run at least. Schools cannot replace the family and Obama is not God and until we admit and ACCEPT it, we are not going to come close to reversing the mess we are in. We can debate the number of counselors, etc. until the cows come home but we are wasting a lot of time and money as we refuse to focus on the core problems in our society and instead what to focus on these 'band aid' solutions (solutions which barely even qualify as band aids).

18) Comment by Chucky - 11/01/2013

Do more gooder than me ? Back on the topic, I do believe we need educated councilors in our schools, someone who can keep track and have an overview of a student's progress and options.

19) Comment by Noel Hammatt - 11/01/2013

Traveler has come very close to the truth in his most recent comment on here. The Chicago School of Economics (what some have derisively termed the Chicago Boy's Club) playbook has always advocated the economic starvation of government services to the point where those using the services rise up against it because it no longer meets their needs. Remember, the goal of the Boy's Club is to eliminate, to the greatest degree possible, any government services in order to maximize profit in the private sector. Louisiana is their playground, their dream state! John White, Governor Jindal, and their handlers at the national level are advising them at every step of the way. One of the recommendations of their handlers is to keep stirring the pot, keep people sniping at different aspects of the coming takeover (and often at each other as the conditions under which they operate get worse and worse) in order to hide their true intent. The effective destruction of Bulletin 741 (which just a few years ago was considered sacrosanct, and the "Bible" by the reformers who were using it to attack local districts) is now being used to pit Superintendents and School Boards against their School Counselors. John White promised superintendents more flexibility in order to get them to agree to not fight the defunding of Public Education. (And then there is the payoff for codicils written into law that help protect Superintendents from their local School Boards. Did you know that it only takes a simple majority to HIRE a Superintendent but it takes a super-majority to FIRE them?) In addition, White, like his predecessor Pastorek, has used the power of his office to reward Superintendents who genuflect at his altar of privatization, while penalizing those who dare to question. The former group gets special non-competitive grants (look at Jefferson Parish) and of course, get cushy jobs without any clear responsibilities when they leave their districts while those who dare to question get publicly chastised and have their positions undermined for daring to actually read the laws and not depend on White's interpretation of them. Remember the attack by White in the media on local Superintendents and School Boards that did not follow White's example of how to craft personnel policies on lay-offs, even though their policies were meeting the requirements of the law. You can be sure that no one who questions White will find themselves hired in these cushy jobs at the newer, top-heavy Department of Education. Now, since the Superintendents find their districts starved for funding (yes, Virginia, there is a budget crisis in almost every district, directly caused by this administration) they welcome flexibility, even though that flexibility starts to pit some teachers against others and now counselors are caught in the budget battles. All this time the handlers of White and Jindal are nearly wetting their pants as they see even more privatization coming into focus in their wet-dream state of Louisiana. None of these changes have anything to do with improving the lives and the education of children. That is the saddest part of all of this jockeying for control of public education by the reformers. I am often asked, "Noel, do you think (put in the name of a so-called "reformer" here) really believes this is helping children? I used to give many reformers the benefit of the doubt in my mind. I have since learned to0 doubt the benefit of that. I say to those who ask about the reformers: "Ask yourself these questions. Why have the reformers used the playbooks of Goebbels and Madison Avenue to promote lies (remember them saying that vouchers would NOT be paid using local funds?) and myth-information ("Watch this Joe Public, don't look at Letter Grades in the RSD, look at this magic number we call improvement, and ignore those schools over there we are using to hide the low-performing students), all while refusing to open their books and allow researchers and the media access to their public records? Why are they constantly reshuffling the deck of "accountability" and having their number crunchers constantly redoing their formulas until they get one they like? Can you envision White and Dobard standing over a programmer running the numbers on the Recovery School District in New Orleans, ordering the programmer to keep shifting numbers and deciding which schools won't be included in the numbers until they get just over the number that moves them into the "D" grade? Yeah, I can too." When you start asking questions, or start looking at hard data (if you can somehow get if freed from the minions of myth-information at the State Department of Education) you will begin to see how lies and deceit are just tools in the toolbox of these merchants of privatized profit who call themselves "reformers." What is most amazing, is that the media doesn't seem to be very interested in questioning many of these reforms, and certainly doesn't seem to be willing to spend any of their resources at digging a bit. But then, newspapers and the electronic media depend on advertising to keep us informed… so they too are held hostage, at times, to the whims of the reformers. After all, with most sources of data and information controlled by the reformers, they have to "go along to get along." A sad state of affairs for us, the culmination of a wet dream for ALEC, APEL, BROAD, BRAC and BRAF (and now we have BRAZ), and the Cabal of CABL and their handlers at LABI. All of this is playing out beautifully for the Champions of the Chicago Boy's Club. The students? The reformers don't really care about them. Let us as one final question. Many of these pro-reform groups are giving Louisiana's so-called reformers "bragging rights" which are then passed on to the media in Press Release after Press Release, yet none of these kudos have anything to do with measuring actual student performance? Remember when it was the reformers that said: "Student Achievement is the Number One Goal." Now, when their schools are utter failures using THEIR STANDARDS (yes, the RSD New Orleans runs schools themselves, and every single one is an F or a D school after more than 5 years, in fact over 80% of the students in RSD-run schools in New Orleans are in schools rated F and, of course, every single school taken over by the RSD in the Capitol Area has a grade of F), please tell me why ANYONE with a brain is claiming that the reformers have the answers?

20) Comment by Traveler - 11/01/2013

To Chucky: since you apparently did not take all those "red circles" to heart and improve your writing, how can you/we expect today's students to be any different?

21) Comment by Chucky - 11/01/2013

Traveler -Was not correcting was pointing out an out-look of the statement made by Smith. Thanks for the 'red circles' got plenty on my school papers.

22) Comment by Traveler - 11/01/2013

To Chucky: by the way----you used incorrect punctuation at several places in your comment. In addition, you incorrectly used "your" when you should have used "you're." And I AM both "educated" and "trained" in grammar, so you can check out my statements in your nearest grammar textbook. You look pretty silly trying to correct someone's else's writing, when your own is so faulty.

23) Comment by Traveler - 11/01/2013

To Chucky: You really should use the dictionary before you attempt to correct someone. Webster's has a long definition of the word "train" when it is used as a verb. I won't copy the entire content, but I do see this: "to make fit, qualified, or proficient." While counselors are most certainly "educated," they need to be TRAINED in specific skills that are not covered in university preparation courses. Webster's definition of "educated" when it is used as an adjective includes this: "giving evidence of training." Roget's Thesaurus uses the adjectives "trained" and "educated" interchangeably. Next time you decide to try to ACT smart, Chucky, instead BE smart and consult the experts!

24) Comment by Chucky - 11/01/2013

“Unfortunately, these people aren’t trained.” Cathy Smith said. Well Cathy you train animals people are educated so your off to a bad start with me.

25) Comment by Traveler - 11/01/2013

Next, Mr. White will try eliminating public school librarians, art teachers, music teachers, social workers, school nurses, speech pathologists, audiologists, and psychologists. These professionals are part of a well-rounded, wall-to-wall education system, but because they provide support for the entire school population rather than having one specific class roll, Mr. White is likely to consider them "expendable" as well.

26) Comment by cbelse1 - 11/01/2013

What this article fails to mention is that Louisiana only REQUIRES counselors for high schools; counselors are only recommended for elementary and middle grades. This is a travesty!! Set foot in any school at any level, and then try to tell me that these students don't need mental and behavioral support. How are these needs going to be met by someone who is part time? How are these needs going to be met by someone who is untrained? How are these needs going to be met by someone who is not a regular face on the campus?

27) Comment by Traveler - 11/01/2013

Because of Mr. White's very limited experience as an educator, he is either ignorant of----or indifferent to----the vital role that counselors play on a public school campus. In addition to their critical service of guiding and supporting students in their social/emotional development, one of the most important responsibilities that most public school counselors perform is managing the administration of Mr. White's precious standardized tests. It is the counselor in most public schools who is charged with protecting the integrity of the tests and the testing situation. Mr. White, once you succeed in eliminating the counselors, who is going to oversee those test procedures for you? The principals are already swamped. You don't trust the teachers. Ask parents to come in?----that's a conflict of interest. Vendors?----that's corruption waiting to happen! Mr. White fails to recognize that counselors were added to school faculties decades ago in response to a specific need. Counselors, if Mr. White's past successes in getting his ideas implemented are an indicator of where this is going, your days are numbered. I'm so sorry.

28) Comment by Get Real - 11/01/2013

Most voted for Piyush and Roemer not because of experience but becasue of the R behind their name so when now they are getting their reward...quit crying and remember your vote counts.

29) Comment by Scrooge - 11/01/2013

"allow students to earn credit for subjects where they can show proficiency rather than attending the class." What? And how is proficiency in hamburgerology shown? Don't need counselors or for that matter teachers either, instead rely on "vendors" and "partnerships"? Is that what this is saying?