Supreme Court fight looms over right to carry a gun

The next big issue in the national debate over guns — whether people have a right to be armed in public — is moving closer to Supreme Court review.

A provocative ruling by a panel of federal appeals court judges in Chicago struck down the only statewide ban on carrying concealed weapons, in Illinois. The ruling is somewhat at odds with those of other federal courts that have largely upheld state and local gun laws, including restrictions on concealed weapons, since the Supreme Court’s landmark ruling declaring that people have a right to have a gun for self-defense.

In, 2008, the court voted 5-4 in District of Columbia v. Heller to strike down Washington’s ban on handgun ownership and focused mainly on the right to defend one’s own home. The court left for another day how broadly the Second Amendment may protect gun rights in other settings.

Legal scholars say the competing appellate rulings mean that day is drawing near for a new high court case on gun rights.

The appeals court ruling in Chicago came early in a week that ended with the mass shooting in Connecticut that left 28 people dead, including 20 children at an elementary school and the presumed gunman.

Laurie Levenson, a professor at the Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, said that along with thorny legal issues, “we have the overlay of these tragedies hitting us on a somewhat regular basis.”

The author of a book that traces the battle over gun control in the U.S. said he thinks Supreme Court intervention is likely in the short-term. “Since the Heller case, the next great question for the Supreme Court to decide was whether there is a right to carry guns in public,” said UCLA law professor Adam Winkler, whose book “Gunfight” was published last year.

Roughly 40 states make it easy for people to carry a gun in public. But in California, New York and a few other states, local and state regulations make it difficult if not impossible to get a license to carry a weapon. Illinois and the District of Columbia have been the only places to refuse to allow people to be armed in public.

“In some of our most populated states, the right does not exist either because it’s completely forbidden or practically forbidden,” said Alan Gura, the lawyer who won the Heller case at the Supreme Court.

Gun rights advocates and gun control supporters are as split over the issue of having guns in public as they were over whether the Constitution protected gun ownership at all — and along the same lines.

Jonathan Lowy, an attorney with the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said, “If law enforcement makes a determination that somebody would increase the danger to the public by carrying a loaded gun on the streets, then that person should not be carrying a loaded gun. Some people in the gun lobby want to tie the hands of law enforcement.”

But Wayne LaPierre, chief executive officer of the National Rifle Association, said, “Clearly, the individual right under the Constitution does not apply only to your home. People have lives outside their home and the constitutional right applies outside their home.”

Sometimes, LaPierre said, “The only thing to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

Judge Richard Posner of the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals employed similar reasoning in his majority opinion striking down the Illinois law. Posner said that threatening confrontations do not only or even principally occur at home. “A Chicagoan is a good deal more likely to be attacked on a sidewalk in a rough neighborhood than in his apartment on the 35th floor of the Park Tower,” the judge said.

He homed in on the distinction between inside the home and on the street in his questioning of another recent appeals court ruling that upheld New York’s restrictive law on granting people permits to carry concealed weapons. A unanimous panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said the requirement that people demonstrate a special need to carry a concealed weapon does not violate the Constitution.

“Our principal reservation about the Second Circuit’s analysis is its suggestion that the Second Amendment should have much greater scope inside the home than outside simply because other provisions of the Constitution have been held to make that distinction,” including the right to privacy that underlies the high court ruling striking down sodomy laws. “Well of course, the interest in having sex inside one’s home is much greater than the interest in having sex on the sidewalk in front of one’s home. But the interest in self-protection is as great outside as inside the home,” Posner said.

In dissent, Judge Ann Williams said governments have a strong interest in regulating guns on the street. “It is common sense, as the majority recognizes, that a gun is dangerous to more people when carried outside the home. When firearms are carried outside the home, the safety of a broader range of citizens is at issue. The risk of being injured or killed now extends to strangers, law enforcement personnel, and other private citizens who happen to be in the area,” Williams said.

Gura represents the challengers to the New York law and he said he will ask the high court to review the 2nd Circuit ruling. Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan has not yet said whether the state will ask the full 7th Circuit court to reconsider its ruling or appeal to the Supreme Court.

So far, the Supreme Court has turned down appeals asking it to say more about guns. But that reluctance might fade if the court were presented with a split between appeals courts, typically a strong factor in attracting the justices’ interest.

The Second Amendment talks about “the right to keep and bear arms and it’s as if some courts want to take giant eraser to the words ‘and bear’ and pretend that they’re not there,” said David Thompson, managing partner of the Cooper and Kirk law firm in Washington. Thompson represented some plaintiffs in the Illinois case.

Northwestern University law professor Eugene Kontrovich said the difference between the New York and Chicago courts over what it means to bear arms could be enough to persuade the Supreme Court to intervene.

Winkler, the UCLA professor, said he thinks the Illinois statute would fall if it were to put to a test at the Supreme Court, probably by the same 5-4 vote as in Heller. But it is hard to predict how the Supreme Court might rule on restrictions that fall short of an outright ban on the right to carry a loaded weapon in public for self-defense, he said.

“Public possession is a different issue than having a gun in your home,” Winkler said.


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Comments (39)


1) Comment by nimby? - 18/12/2012

the idea is to keep guns away from the bad guys . but it appears there is a problem determining who is bad . this young man had no criminal record . as teaslayer expressed on another thread responsible gun owners are only one accident away from being part of the problem .

2) Comment by NearBarbarian - 18/12/2012

Comments by @The_Host and like-minded individuals are Exhibit A of why stricter gun control legislation will become more popular among the majority of Americans and their representatives. Words are typically expressions of unspoken intentions; it's not hard to read between the lines of the words here. Moreover, the lives of all those who die needlessly from people (mis)using guns are being dishonored by those more concerned about self-righteous pride and projectiles than people. But as Mr. Obama said to Mr. Romney in their second presidential debate, "Proceed, Governor." Go ahead and keep the thoughts coming; that way, we'll all better know just what we're dealing with.

3) Comment by The_Host - 18/12/2012

It is impossible to talk about gun control because there is nothing to talk about dude. We have guns, get over it or come and get them already big man trying to save everyone from themselves. Still no word on if you would be willing to pay per word for your freedom of speech huh DMJ? Liberals tell me we can't get rid of the illegal aliens all 12 million or so of them yet you want me to think you can get rid of all the guns lol. It is a fallacy and delusion to even think you could begin going down that road. You say you aren't against gun ownership but I think anyone reading your posts knows if you could vote to confiscate every last one tomorrow you would be voting for it and you know it's true. You are the biggest foaming at the mouth gun grabber on these comment boards. I am going to Gunbroker now and order another 1000 rounds of ammo for my AR15 in your honor DMJ. I have at least 5000 thanks to you already. Keep talking and I will keep buying in your honor sir :) maybe some more high capacity mags opps I mean CLIPS (I don't want to confuse the stupid with actual relative terms) are in order as well thanks. Shipping is even free right now!

4) Comment by CountryAttorney - 18/12/2012

@DMJ: After each school shooting, I do not think to myself that this is OUR second amendment at work. I think to myself that if OUR second amendment were not restricted, a responsible armed citizen could have stopped or diminished this tragedy. If only some group of responsible armed citizens (aka MILITIA - as the term was widely used in the 18th century) could have been present, we might not have the extreme numbers of dead at the hands of mass murders. This tragedy in CT was not the result of the NRA's lobbying efforts. It was the result of an irresponsible mother, who, although she owned the guns legally, did not take it upon herself to take proper precautions to prevent access of those guns to a psychologically deranged individual.

5) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

I guess it's impossible to talk about gun control without resorting to logical extremes and absurdities, right? Ugh. What a waste of time this is... But hey, after each shooting, just remember...this is your 2nd Amendment at work. Being on the winning side must feel strange when winning means people dying. Ce la vis...

6) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

I've hunted all my life, and I will soon be getting my concealed carry permit, not because I think my life is in danger, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. All that being said, I'd like to address this "gun issue" (though guns are not the real issue here). I think gun safety/responsibility should be taught in schools....twice. Kids are taught about the dangers of drugs and alcohol, they're taught driver's ed, and they're taught about sex (sometimes). Are guns not equally deserving of a simple class? I think firearm SAFETY should be taught fairly young, around 3rd-5th grade. Many hunters take hunter education around this age and learn very valuable lessons about firearm safety. I think it's important to come back again around 9th-10th grade (try to catch everyone before you start getting a lot of drop outs) and teach it again, with an emphasis on gun ownership and responsibility, as well as safety. Keep in mind, I don't want gun ownership pushed on kids (just like I don't think anyone wants premarital sex pushed on kids), just a responsible lesson with SLIGHTLY more mature young adults. As for limiting ammunition, please.....Limiting the speed limit sure keeps accidents down. Limiting how much alcohol you can drink before driving sure keeps drunks off the road. Limiting the number of people you can murder (to zero) sure has done a number for the murder rate in Baton Rouge. You people are dancing around the problem. The problem is people, not the tool they use to commit their crime. I heard a guy on the radio this morning put it nicely. "You wouldn't blame a man's genitals for a rape, would you?" No, you blame the man.

7) Comment by The_Host - 18/12/2012

I agree with you on drug legalization. I do so because I know they can't be stopped by LAWS. The very same laws you would claim can stop guns. The point I was making had nothing to do with self use versus someone attacking you. The point is that when we make something illegal we create a black market for those items, always have, always will. Do you disagree DMJ? Black markets inflate prices of illegal goods. Still with me here. Now as we have seen with drugs the COPS are more than willing to help themselves to drugs that were confiscated and put them back on the street. Do you really think they will not do the exact same thing with guns? Look at all the coke that disappeared. Change the word Cocaine out with Gun and you have the same outcome. COPS sold illegal items at high profits and effectively undermined the entire purpose of their job. All the while guns are back on the street just like the coke was and no one is any the wiser. Make no mistake when you declare your wishes to end gun sales and limit ammunition purchases you will be looked at by many as a Domestic threat to our Freedoms. That usually happens when someone wants to take away someone elses freedom. You never said would you be cool with $100 per word out of your mouth to maintain your 1st Amendment rights?

8) Comment by nimby? - 18/12/2012

could this have been avoided , yes . this wasn't a gun control issue . this was a parent , coddling an emotionally disturbed child , ignoring a problem , refusing to deal with mental issues . a well to do family , the young man was bright , intelligent , raised by a loving mother . sitting in a dark room in front of a video screen killing everything in sight isn't exactly uplifting . Parents , instead of killing/shooting games give them a bike , ball , something to get them out of the house , and join them . would do both some good .

9) Comment by old yat - 18/12/2012

Hey DMJ & the rest of you gun control advocates. Let me say that I respect your opinion to not own firearms of any kind,however you also want to take my legal right to own firearms away,that I do not consider an option,that is my opinion. That being said let me give you a little food for thought. In 1933,a small country in Europe decided to outlaw guns and disarm the populace.Over the next 12 years that country murdered 11 million citizens including 1.1 million children.Those human beings were regular folks like you and me,not soldiers.That event was called the Holocaust,do you think history can not be repeated? I am not so sure!!! GOD BLESS&HAPPY HOLIDAYS

10) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

Either outlaw all guns or have zero restrictions? Those are our only 2 options?? And who says our country is polarized? Geez....

11) Comment by old yat - 18/12/2012

Hey Phil: I appreciate your comments and I also think that at every school there should be someone armed and trained. However,you say that the firearm should be kept in a safe and secure place. Do you really think that when some nut job shows up at the school with killing on his mind that he is going to wait for the teacher to retrieve their weapon from the so called 'safe,secure place'? I don't think so!!!! If the teacher or security person is not able to conceal carry,then they would be better left unarmed.I am a responsible gun owner and have a CCP ,the reason why is the bad guys are not going to give you time to retrieve your weapon before they do harm to you or your loved ones.In a perfect world none of these things would be necessary,however in the world today with the amount of wackos you can not depend on the government to keep you and your family safe.Remember the old saying "WHEN YOU OUTLAW GUNS ONLY THE OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS", sad but true!!!!GOD BLESS&HAPPY HOLIDAYS

12) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

Just curious....what's the 5% of stuff I'm right about?

13) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

You use drugs on yourself. You use guns on other people. One is an intoxicant; the other is a weapon. Still confused about the difference?

14) Comment by The_Host - 18/12/2012

You want and desire to take away my rights. YES I would say that makes you a domestic enemy of my freedoms. I would love to shut you up but I can't and won't try to I will just let you spew your non-sense on 95% of every topic we discuss. Would you like it if I tried to shut you up for good. How about we tax you by the word, each word out your mouth costs you $100? People will always be able to get guns. People get drugs today Yes or NO? Drugs are illegal today Yes or NO? Cops are caught daily selling illegal drugs Yes or NO? So you would expect that these same cops will not be corrupted to sell guns if they were like drugs and worth even more because they are against the law? You have enough sense to realize you can't stop drugs but the very same arguement for the very same reasons can be made as to why banning guns is a pipe dream. Yet you can not draw that correlation for some reason. Drug laws have caused more problems than drugs themselves. Gun laws would be no different and you know it!

15) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

Right. I'm the jerk for suggesting gun control in the wake of several mass shootings. I guess I should be worried that gun toters consider me a domestic enemy, but you know....I've never been the paranoid kid, which why I don't have a gun and never will. People who are against gun control always say something to the effect of "people will always be able to get guns." For you guys and the politicians you elect, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?

16) Comment by Chucky - 18/12/2012

Not Down on DMJ or others about gun control I know it will not happen and 'they' only wish the best for America and humans. Would like to see tax $ and effort into gun ownership programs and mental health programs but realize the bad actors will always get what they want and I have an obligation to family and society to protect from those who would do harm. Not well said but how I am feeling,

17) Comment by The_Host - 18/12/2012

Here DMJ goes again. He isn't after your guns relax. But notice a few posts earlier he is more than happy to make sure you can't buy the gun to begin with and also no ammunition for you according to his wishes. Hey DMJ there is one and only one reason you will never get the guns and you know why you are just to cowardly to admit it. No one and I mean no one including the military is going to go door to door without so many people being killed it would be off the chart. Do you contend there would be any other outcome? Do you think everyone is going to just turn their guns in because DMJ and like mindless individuals say so? Is that honestly how you see this all playing out eventually? Mark nailed it on the head Enemies both Domestic and Foreign is written in there for a reason.

18) Comment by Ivy - 17/12/2012

Immediately one thinks to control the problem by restricting the rights of citizens, but please look closer at the situation! Although we will never know WHY that woman chose to use guns to teach her son "responsibility" (in and of itself an irresponsible act), she did and now we are all chasing our tails trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. We need to turn to God, pray, pray, pray, and pray some more!

19) Comment by billynurse - 17/12/2012

Dear DMJ, 2nd amendment first lists the state militia, which everyone understands carry weapons. Why would it then go further to spell out the right of the people to keep and bear arms. 2 separate things. How about we focus on the real causes of these demented acts and work on the human interventions (mental health, etc.)

20) Comment by nimby? - 17/12/2012

arming teachers is not the answer , unless they have a military background and are trained in the use of firearms . on that thought with the number of retired military personnel and veterans returning from overseas would it be wrong to add a few of these folk at every school ?

21) Comment by gofigger - 17/12/2012

I read where someone beat his neighbor to death with a hammer.............

22) Comment by DMJ - 17/12/2012

Relax. No one things we're going to ban guns or take away your 2nd Amendment rights (even though the 2nd Amendment specifically states that the bearing of arms is for maintaining a well-regulated miitia, and almost no gun owners are in a militia of any kind). But gun advocates must admit there is a human cost to individual gun ownership. Pretending that guns aren't at least part of the problem is insanely stupid.

23) Comment by free_market - 17/12/2012

I think part of the problem is that when something like this happens, it is run on every news network continuously for weeks. The next nutjob sees this and decides he is going to go out and top what happened at Columbine, Va. Tech, Colorado theater, Oregon mall, and Sandy Hook School. Movies and video games don't help, either. Maybe the shooters feel like they will gain some sort of notoreity (as sick as that is) for killing more people than the last psycho. Of course, no news outlet, conservative or liberal, will admit this. As tragic as what happened is, I still do not want my 2nd Amendment rights taken away.

24) Comment by gofigger - 17/12/2012

If you relinquish your guns, people are still going to die. We have to get to the root of the problem. We have produced a society that no longer has the desire to determine right from wrong.

25) Comment by DMJ - 17/12/2012

Now it's my turn for some gloom and doom: Everyone keeps saying 'it has to stop.' How? It won't stop. Some people are nuts. If those people can get a gun (and it seems they always will be able to), they will do some killing. Pretending otherwise is pointless. And TommyRucker, we don't ALL bear responsibility for the shooting in CT. I'm not responsible at all. If it were up to me, that guy would have never been able to get a gun in the first place.

26) Comment by Chucky - 17/12/2012

Accuracy is high, what I am talking about is a .'weeding out' mandatory gun classes where instructors get to eyeball the new and old owners of guns. Yea ,I know Gov. intervention. And how to keep your firearm safe from the disturbed. Would like to see a lot more free classes made mandatory with gun ownership. And what is it with the pot pic. ?

27) Comment by TommyRucker - 17/12/2012

What ever you do to the LEAST of my people you do to me-this young shooter was in a state of sever loneliness and was ignored (given token attention at best by society) for years until he lost so much love, he became dominated and overwhelmed by anti-love as it was chronically and over a period of years ingrained in his psychic that he was not and could not be loved so he lashed out against the source of much love in society-the innocent, the young children. We can be made to feel better perhaps by our president and other secular leaders by focusing on a scapegoat and in this case it is guns. Guns are dangerous and need to be regulated but to blame this mess on guns is a big mistake as it goes much deeper than guns and such a reaction against the lack of love by society will be expressed in other ways once guns are eliminated as they are not the REAL cause of such destruction. Secular people think the answer is in humanism and unfortunately we are buying into secularism today and things are getting worse, not better-wake up America!!!

28) Comment by phil - 17/12/2012

I do not have a total answer for this problem. There are so many guns and also plenty of ammunition in the hands of people now including crooks and idiots. Even if you outlawed all firearms today, the crooks and idiots would still keep their guns, and the general public would be in more danger in the short term. Whatever happens it isn't going to happen over night. Concerning the schools, I hate to say it but maybe there should be a voluntary group of teachers at every school who can keep firearms (in a safe secure place) at school and also have to take a gun course to learn how to handle and shoot it. At least then the school will be able to defend itself against these insane people and idiots who want to harm innocent kids. One thing is for sure - this has to stop one way or the other

29) Comment by speakthetruth - 17/12/2012

****Comment Removed for Violation of Terms of Use****

30) Comment by TommyRucker - 17/12/2012

If the people want to change the right to arm ourselves then it should be done as written in the constitution. A constitutional amendment needs to be submitted to the people. Unfortunately that is not the way of dictators and political mobs as they are determined to get their way and will use every underhanded technique that they can. This most recent school shooting is be USED by political types to further their causes and gain more power. Our president takes the spotlight whenever he gets a chance as his ego has been inflated by his self described 'mandate' and landslide victory (50.5%). The shooting at these schools and other similar disasters are the result of our abandonment and refusal to follow, honestly follow, the second great commandment of God-to love others as yourself. We ignore, compare, ridicule, reject, abuse, neglect, etc. many people whom we don't think will lead to serving our selfish and self centered ideals. We simply refuse to really love people whom are 'lesser' in our eyes. We might give then some sort of 'token' attention but refuse to really put time and energy into reaching someone like this young shooter in Conn. We prefer to rationalize, justify and defend our 'lack of involvement' with someone who desperately needed LOVE. We will all be held accountable for this mess in Conn as we are ALL have some responsibility, but what do we do-we follow the lead of our president and seek a scapegoat so we can feel better and not have to look at our responsibility in this mess and how we failed. Obama is so political that he is playing around with the actual naming of the scapegoat (guns) as that may not be the best political course to take today. He is so out of touch with what is really wrong and going wrong in this country that it is pathetic. He is either out of touch or very much in touch and in a very covert manner is promoting destructive forces upon this country.

31) Comment by DMJ - 17/12/2012

Chucky, I don't think people not knowing how to shoot better is the problem with mass shootings. If anything, the shooters are too accurate. Still, I'm with you on the ammunitions restrictions.

32) Comment by Elderly Man - 17/12/2012

You liberals simply do not understand that the slaughter of innocent children is a necessary and unavoidable consequence of our divine right to firearms guaranteed by the Second Amendment. If we want to prevent such school incidents, we need to provide police state quality protection. We want a police state constituiton and we now need a police state. By the way, I owned three guns, a Ruger, a Clock, and a Remington. I NEVER bought ammunition for them. Israel allows 30-50 rounds a year. That seems reasonable. Chucky, you make sense.

33) Comment by Chucky - 17/12/2012

No DMJ they should go ( are you they? ) after ammunition , no ammunition, no kill. Trying to get around the law instead of living with the law (or dying) is not going to work. We are a gun totting society and must find the best way to do so responsibly, free and easy access to classes and firing ranges sponsored by the federal gov. would help.

34) Comment by markedwardmarchiafava - 17/12/2012

Words of a true statist. Now I better understand what the founders meant when using the two words "enemies domestic."

35) Comment by DMJ - 17/12/2012

I don't know why they're focusing on gun ownership. They should be focusing on gun selling. They could restrict and regulate gun sellers all they want and it wouldn't be in violation of the 2nd Amendment whatsoever.

36) Comment by Chucky - 17/12/2012

P.S. What with the Marijuana picture ?

37) Comment by Chucky - 17/12/2012

Would i be in more danger of an assault when going to a ATM at night on foot or locked in my vehicle travailing at 45 MPH ?

38) Comment by markedwardmarchiafava - 17/12/2012

For the moment, put aside the fact we DO have a right to bear arms. Now, with an open mind, please show me where We the People authorized the federal government to regulate firearms. I can't find it, either.

39) Comment by gofigger - 17/12/2012

Here comes big brother!