Charter school teacher certification questioned

A new state law that allows uncertified teachers to teach in charter schools sparked controversy Monday on Louisiana’s top school board.

Walter Lee, a member of the state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, noted that charter schools are public schools, and that traditional public schools generally require teachers to be certified.

“If it’s good for one why isn’t it good for the other?” asked Lee, who is superintendent of the DeSoto Parish school system.

“Why should we have such a difference?” he said. “They are both public schools.”

But Chas Roemer, a BESE member who lives in Baton Rouge, said the change is in line with the goal of allowing charter schools to try new approaches to improving student performance. “There are going to be differences and there should be differences,” Roemer said.

The abolition of the teacher certification requirement was included in one of Gov. Bobby Jindal’s bills to make sweeping changes in public school operations.

The measure under scrutiny, House Bill 976, is aimed at paving the way for a major expansion of charter schools, which are public schools run by non-governmental boards.

The credentials issue sparked little comment during legislative debates but generated some from teachers who work in traditional public schools.

Certified teachers have to earn a college degree, finish with at least a 2.5 out of a perfect 4.0 grade-point average and pass a national teacher exam.

For years state education leaders pushed to increase the percentage of certified teachers in public schools and said it was a key factor in the quality of instruction.

Under previous rules, at least 75 percent of charter school teachers were supposed to be certified.

But state Superintendent of Education John White said views on certification have changed.

White said charter schools face tougher oversight than traditional public schools, and can be closed after four years.

Charter schools are supposed to offer innovative classrooms without the red tape common in traditional public schools.

The state has about 100 charter schools serving around 45,000 students in 15 parishes, included East Baton Rouge Parish.

The issue surfaced during a BESE committee meeting in which new state laws are being spelled out in state policies.

Lottie Beebe, a BESE member from Breaux Bridge, said she is a major advocate of teacher certification.

Beebe said allowing uncertified teachers to work in charter schools will make it easier for those schools to fill jobs.

Charter school teachers would still be required to have a bachelor’s degree.

Penny Dastugue, who is president of BESE, noted that there is nothing to prevent charter schools from requiring that teachers have a master’s degree, too.

BESE member Holly Boffy, of Youngsville, said certification is a chance to raise the bar for educators.

But Roemer said the issue of teacher credentials should be left to individual charter schools.

Some who even lack an undergraduate degree could do a good job in the classroom, he said.

Roemer said charter schools should be given flexibility, then be held accountable for how students fare in the classroom.

Comments

1) Comment by vmvm - 20/06/2012

People, do not miss the real agenda: the republicans need to cut education dollars so that they can give more tax breaks to their rich supporters. So, the republicans will allow anybody to be a teacher as long as they only ask for minimum wage and no benefits. The ones in government do not care about public education because they send their own kids to private schools as Jindal does.

2) Comment by vicwill - 20/06/2012

Well said teacherguy. I think we can all see what is the true motivation behind this move. Just think, this is year 1 of the term for Jindal. Come on folks, why would anyone push to place a politician on BESE over a retired Superintendent of a very successful school system?

3) Comment by teacherguy - 19/06/2012

50% of teachers quit within the first five years...let me tell you why, from a teacher's point of view...mostly because the demands of the job are exhausting. It takes me 3-4 weeks of doing absolutely NOTHING at the beginning of every summer just to recoop my energy from the school year. My wife calls me lazy, but when my energy level gets back to "normal", then I have too much energy in her opinion! Another reason they quit, I know...I have been through it and had friends who have quit...many parents blame the teacher for their children who have low grades. The parents walk in and say, "what will you do to help him raise his grades?" Teachers that pass up the five year mark reply, "I'm doing all I can, what are YOU going to do to raise their grades." Another reason, parents side with children when the child gets into trouble (actual excuses from parents) - "you don't like him," " she cheated because she didn't want to fail," you're racist," and "you nit-pick at every little thing." To name a few - Guys, By George seems to think that teachers can demand their superiors (central office and administration) should behave without retaliation while missing the point...teachers, even with tenure, suffer retaliation in more subversive ways than today's legislative leaders demand Jindal to act reasonable without retaliation. ByGeorge believes teachers to be all powerful...but we have NO collective bargaining rights without permission from a school board (would be fired if we tried), the only two parishes that have that are St. Tammany and Jefferson Parish (not today's articles about Jefferson "breaking the unions". Unions in places like the top 20 states in the nation have collectively bargained for the things ByGeorge thinks teachers here should demand. And as puny as our unions were before, they are seen and viewed as the enemy now by the general public. Let me get back to reasons they quit, my brother was non-tenured and was accused of touching a female student inappropriately. He was immediately fired upon arrest. It took about 8 weeks for this to go to court...and he suffered financial ruin due to loss of wages, not being a union member so he had to foot the legal bills alone...and when it went to court the student said, "I was mad at him for fussing at me. He never touched me." He decided never to return to the classroom after that...I learned from his mistake and when the same sort of thing occurred to me after writing up an ex-student for chewing gum...because I was tenured, because I was a union member with legal help...I was not terminated upon initial accusation, and when all was said and done...and the evil intention of the student came to light...my career went on like nothing ever happened. NO man should teach without tenure as a probable protection component for the twisted minds of some of our students today! Why else would teachers quit? A few went home for maternity leave and never came back. Some have been assaulted and battered...I had friends quit when students they were close to died: one student was shot in her doorway, one committed suicide, and one drowned while on a weekend cheer celebration with the squad. I've had friends quit because the paperwork is mountainous: grading 180 student papers, lesson plans, special education documentation, discipline documentation, aligning state standards to the textbook/freelance activities, the need to find new activities when required to spend every minute with students (having planning periods high-jacked), documenting technology in lesson plans, documenting anti-bullying lessons, building lessons with technology infused (takes time), etc. The reward is just not worth the effort for those that quit for paperwork reasons. But the number one reason my colleagues have quit is because they could not manage classroom discipline...it was too much of a challenge. Not that the administration didn't do anything...but because the everyday little things that try a teacher's patience just grew too enormous. They tend to become respectfully paid private industry workers because of the skills they have picked up dealing with a variety of personalities, paperwork, work ethic, etc. I am frequently invited into the private industry world by friends...but I am a glutton for punishment. I love to teach kids, I feel a need to not quit on them, I love their laughter, their tears, the days they can't stand life, and the days they love it, I love to see a kid that doesn't like school love my classroom, I love to see a kid decide my subject is their favorite subject all day, I love to see a kid's excitement when they learn something new, I love to see a kid that has been abused at home smile, I love to watch them overcome low grades, I love to see them tear up when they have passed the LEAP, I feel deep sorrow when they fail, and I love to be there for them - whether they need me or not...even when chastised publicly. Some teachers love kids more than all of this ***** that they say about teachers. And when you push teachers out of the classroom that make children their livelihood, I'm going to tell you that there is so much more to education than one may see in a stupid test score that more accurately represents the environment of the student than how effective a teacher is. Teacher tests are the bare minimum a person should know before going into a classroom (starting teachers) but that is why the upper echelon of states require their teachers get more higher learning than our state does. Invest in teachers...not cut their throats...to raise the standard of LA education.

4) Comment by twinkie1cat - 19/06/2012

Think about this. A charter school is funded for 4 years. A child who entered one in kindergarten would be entering the 4th grade after 4 years. Those first 4 years are the ones in which a child learns the basics of education. Everything else in school and in fact, in life is based in those first 4 years. Now here comes a child who has faithfully attended a charter since kindergarten and is now entering the 4th grade. He has never had a real, certified teacher. His parents are poorly educated and work at 2 or 3 minimum wage jobs just to pay the bills so rely on the school to educate him and the charter is school he could walk to without crossing busy streets. He takes the LEAP and fails. His education thus far is for nothing because he has never really been educated. The other 200 kids in the charter, most of them fail also. This cannot be undone and that is 100 boys and 100 girls headed for Angola or pregnancy. They are not likely to catch up. If a child is behind at the age of 10 they rarely do. They are about to enter puberty when learning becomes more difficult because of the distractions of being a preteen. There have been studies that say that there is a high likelihood of a boy who was having trouble in the 2nd grade going to prison. And the charter group walks away with the benefits of over $8000 per year per child for 4 years. They are not going to use the money to pay the teachers because who would give someone with less than a college education and a teaching certificate teacher pay?

5) Comment by twinkie1cat - 19/06/2012

It is no wonder the legislators did not get copies of the bills to destroy Louisiana's schools until a few days before the session started and then Jindal's goons crammed it through with intimidation tactics and late night sessions. THEY DID NOT WANT THE LEGISLATORS TO HAVE TIME TO READ AND STUDY THE BILLS.!

6) Comment by twinkie1cat - 19/06/2012

Let's see, new approaches to education involving non-teachers. How about a return to the dunce cap, writing "I will behave" at a parochial in New Orleans with a not teacher. Publicly humiliating a child who was being evaluated for autism. (Not sure which state). Giving a child an award for not turning in her homework (but the teacher never bothered to get in touch with the parent). Locking severely handicapped kids in timeout for long periods for things like wetting themselves. And I am sure some of the religious charters will make a quick return to corporal punishment. Or do the parochials do that already.

7) Comment by twinkie1cat - 19/06/2012

Roemer and Holly Boffy are two members of BESE that were pushed into office through Jindal. Jindal did not want Donald Songy on BESE even though he was the recently retired superintendent of one of the highest functioning school systems in Louisiana, Ascension Parish. Holly Boffy was a teacher of the gifted . Gifted teachers are extremely rarified. They only get the best of the best students so she was not close enough to the ground to understand the life of teachers. Plus she was a member of a non-union professional organization that was created specifically for conservatives. But even she had some good things to say about certification.

8) Comment by twinkie1cat - 19/06/2012

Chas Roemer's kids go to Catholic school so he will never suffer the consequences of his viewpoints. The rules running BESE need to change and we need to pressure the legislature to do this: 1) Only parents, grandparents, guardians, siblings, or students in the public schools can serve on BESE. 2) The governor gets NO appointments to BESE. 3) Half of BESE must be certified public school teachers, current or past in any system in America. The other half must conform to #1. 4) At least one member of BESE must conform to #1 above and have a special needs child or be a special education teacher.

9) Comment by 8.3 - 19/06/2012

"There is no secret to what it takes to produce a high performing school"honestly, the data shows a majority of middle to upper class income students with engaged parents (engaged, not meddling). You get what you pay for. Does not competitive compensation attract the best qualified, regardless of sector? Maybe the turnover is so great because the best qualified can find better conditions elsewhere, leaving the dregs to become administrators. In addition, public school discipline is so lax as to be non-existent and without parental support it is the rare sane or intelligent person who continues teaching See, in k12 education, probably 50% of the education is about teaching proper social behaviors and its probably better to err on the side of experience and life skills. That's probably why most businesses would rather have the fresh faced start as interns rather than senior managers regardless of GPA. This whole ridiculous outcome is the reality that has been created by the confused, dysfunctional, and political educational policies of the past, resulting in the very confused, dysfunctional, and political society we have today which will ensure that confused, dysfunctional, and political mob rule in the future will be permanent until the cockroaches take their rightful place as lords of the earth.

10) Comment by ByGeorge - 19/06/2012

realworker --- Someone taught Albert Einstein. Do all teachers therefore get to compare themselves to him? You are mistaking me for being anti-teacher. I am not. I am a parent and a realist. You may disagree with what I write and me with what you write but we should write honestly. Otherwise, what is the use of these forums? In the education debates, teachers have been their own worst enemies but they don't seem to understand this. I am not anti-teacher but I know which way the wind blows. (Someone taught every weatherman too, but it don't take no weatherman to know which way the wind blows.) Honestly.... honestly, a degree in education signifies that your average teacher knows very little. Honestly, passing a teacher certification exam is only somewhat harder than being able to spell your name backwards. Honestly, the professional conduct required of your average teacher is on par with that expected of your average Academy Sports assistant manager (and no, I am not anti-Academy Sports either.). It wasn't always this way and it needn't be this way now. Your concern regarding the turnover of TFA teachers after their two year committment is noted. However long before TFA, 50% of all new teachers left after 5 years. This somehow suggests that one thing a teaching degree is not preparing teachers for is for teaching. It wasn't always this way and it needn't be this way now. Teachers work for other educators who (almost always) were teachers themselves. If teachers get little respect in this state it is exactly for the reason I have stated over and over on this forum in the last 2 weeks. It is because teachers are fighting the wrong battles in yesterday's wars. There is no secret to what it takes to produce a high performing school. If, with your education degree, you don't know what it takes, then I, without one, will tell you. However, teachers refuse to hold their bosses - other educators - responsible for providing the environment which will permit them to do their jobs and create these high performing schools (and I ain't talking about more money). If teachers have lost the respect of parents it is because in the experience of parents, if you put two teachers together in the same corner of a room, you couldn't get them to agree on shortest way out of that room. Yet get two teachers together on forums like this and to a person,they will tell you and tell you in violent agreement exactly what the problem is: Jindal, parents, students, society. The problem is never with the adults actually running or teaching in our schools. (Anyway, I don't believe you. I am not privy to this type of thing, but I strongly suspect that every teaching job in this state will be filled come the second week of school. Furthermore, I suspect they will all be filled with teachers.)

11) Comment by 8.3 - 19/06/2012

All of the self professed experts need to substitute teach. They wouldn't make a day. Don't have time to research but TFA turnover would probably be very interesting, is that why the data is difficult to find?

12) Comment by 8.3 - 19/06/2012

"what college student is his or her right mind would go into education" Estimates put the costs of teacher attrition at $7.3 billion a year. It is "hard to believe that policies geared toward keeping teachers around for only a few years would be good for students, teachers, or public schools. Already %46 (NCTAF)of new teachers leave the profession within five years, and now reformers want to make it even less appealing for teachers to make teaching a career. This makes no sense. Whatever money is saved on benefits and higher veteran salaries is lost in recruitment, training, and other expenses associated with high turnover. Turnover is highest at the neediest schools." Erik Klein, Forbes MAYBE THE GOD OF PROFIT WILL SAVE Y'ALL.

13) Comment by realworker - 19/06/2012

ByGeorge - Someone TAUGHT that doctor, TAUGHT that lawyer. They were not born knowing what they know. Teachers compare themselves because they are required to have a degree, pass a certification exam, and engage in professional conduct. Yes, there are bad teachers, just like there are bad doctors and bad lawyers and legislators. And the problem that most have with TFA isn't that they aren't dedicated, it's that they are going to do it for two years and leave the school to find someone else, start all over again with new faculty. But we do need TFA and will need them more and more in years to come. Teachers have so little respect in this state what college student is his or her right mind would go into education and plan to stay in Louisiana these days.

14) Comment by BRmoderate - 19/06/2012

sorry for typo... "educated in effective techniques"

15) Comment by BRmoderate - 19/06/2012

BYGeorge, EVERY state has a certification process. As part of the certification process, teachers must show that they are both educating in effective teaching techniques AND able to execute them during their yearlong journey towards certification in which they are actually in the classroom reporting to mentor teachers. To stay certified, teaching must continuously take classes that hone their skills as educators. As a former educator, i can tell you that a great many of the uncertified teachers do not have the same drive as certified teachers (if they did, they would have gotten certified long ago as it opens employment options). Certification works, I have seen it in real life. Many of the failing public schools do not have certified teachers in all positions. Furthermore, you wanna see why La. has a terrible education record? look at our history of segregation, politics, poverty, and parenting

16) Comment by ByGeorge - 19/06/2012

Many comments but only time for a few: 1) Teachers compare themselves with doctors and lawyers; parents tune out. Parents know better. 2) I’ll name one thing that a Charter School has done that is being adopted and promulgated throughout the public school system. It has shown the public school teacher certification process to be the scam that smart teachers knew it to be all along. 3) In Louisiana, the point of failure of any good idea is its execution. The idea of doing away with the teacher certification requirement for otherwise qualified prospective teachers is a great idea. However, I will not dispute – no rational person living in Louisiana could dispute –that the execution of this great idea is fraught with peril. While teacher certification is a threshold so low as to be almost non-existent, I will guess that it did keep 25% or so of Louisiana teacher want-to-be’s (typically, friends and relatives of other teachers and/or relatives of school board members) thankfully out of the teaching “profession” (40% if you count teacher/coach want-to-be's.). 4) No rational person concerned about the education of our youth should be opposed to Teach For America. That this organization asks for just a two year commitment is not a secret. Neither is the fact that this organization attracts many of our nation’s brightest, most energetic and idealistic graduates. I have written earlier about teachers and teacher unions not understanding what battles they should fight. Their anti-TFA position is just another example of a hill they insist on charging up without thought to the damage it does to their strategic and tactical interests. Not only will teachers not take that hill, they will sustain massive casualties in public good will. Teachers need to re-assess. What is the cause for which teachers are fighting? Who are the belligerents? Teachers, I tell you this: you want TFA on your side. Let me say this in another way: you should want to be on TFA’s side. TFA teachers are trying to make a difference. Teachers should oppose young men and women who want to make a difference? Really?

17) Comment by brhope - 19/06/2012

i remember seeing a tv commercial with Chas saying our schools are in bad shape, we need to reform education and make it stronger and better. But with those wonderful politician words and phrases. So making things better by allowing teachers to teach without any certification. WTF

18) Comment by brhope - 19/06/2012

Wow. Hey, when they build charter hospitals, can I finally be a doctor? Maybe like the ones I see on tv. I feel like I've learned enough from tv I dont need to go to school. I do have a question. Is there anything we can do about this nonsense? Or do we just have to let big Gov. and his buddy Chas decide whats best for our children. Wait... I thought the "right" was against big government making changes for you.

19) Comment by teacherguy - 19/06/2012

Getting rid of experienced teachers is as stupid as getting rid of experienced ________________ , you can fill in the blank there. Imagine an industry that removes its experienced personnel. It would take MANY steps backwards before. Gains have been made in EVERY industry, not in spite of its experienced workers...but because of its experienced workers. Today's trend is to get rid of experienced teachers to save money in salaries and benefits, to change the status quo, ...and there is no evidence to prove that is a recipe for success, and it does not seem we will require charters and voucher schools to live up to the same evaluation standards set for public schools. Each charter school is an experiment for at least four years...but the collateral damage to the effective public school teachers that have given their lives to try to cultivate the future using the best educational practices, experience, and higher learning could bring will be colossal not only to the teachers, but the students they no longer serve. To replace experienced teachers with TFA "weekend warriors" spending short spurts of time in the teaching profession before they are deemed ineffective and kicked to the curb instead of being cultivated into an effective teacher (for the long haul, diesel engine) and to replace experienced teachers with inexperienced personnel...let me just say, give me an accredited 30 year experienced airline pilot for my next flight and not a pilot that learned how to fly in a simulator last month. I prefer that not only for my kid whether he be in Zachary, Livingston, Central (where the highest percentages of certified teachers are employed) as well as in the inner city EBR, St. Helena, and/or ____________(another fill in the blank.)

20) Comment by Iamhopeful2 - 19/06/2012

Not requiring certification is not about 'THE CHILDREN." It is a logical step in removing the last limitation that prevented Teach for America Corporation from completely taking over our public schools. Phoney "research" by the likes of Dr. Noell were a lead in to give any credibility to this legislation. He surmised in his "study" that TFA instructors were generally more effective than EXPERIENCED certified teachers (he did the same disservice for National Board Certified Teachers to help Jindal remove that classification from the possibility of Pay for Performance). . Now he's gone - washed out but probably not washed up if he's on the "reform" employment circuit that brought us the likes of John White and Kira Orange Jones (oh year -both of Teacher for America fame). Has anybody noticed the wave of teacher lay-offs and firing since our new reform legislation passed? Jefferson Parish is really leading the charge by closing traditional schools (claiming reduced student population and budget cuts) but opening charters at the same time - Firing hundreds of certified teachers - those who aren't rehired at lower salaries and no contract will be replaced with - you guess it - Teach for America. Now that the cat is fully out of the bag and dashing across the interstate during rush hour traffic, it's time for taxpayers to stop footing the bill to the tune of $1 million a year for the Teach for American Employment Agency services. Just put an AD in the Times-Picayune and THEY WILL COME!!!

21) Comment by spqr - 19/06/2012

Chase Former is spoiled, lazy and corrupt. Period.

22) Comment by cbelse1 - 19/06/2012

As a public employee, I had to participate in a mandatory ethics training which detailed the policies for dealing with conflicts of interest. According to this policy, Roemer should have to recuse himself whenever something related to charters is being presented at a BESE meeting b/c his sister is the president of the charter school association. Did our ethics board rule this way?? No, they bended the rules so that he could stay to vote but his sister could not appear at BESE meetings. Again, Jindal at work. . .

23) Comment by HMaltravers - 19/06/2012

Amen to realworker! You hit the nail on the head. I taught for several years before going to work at the Dept of Education. What I soon discovered was that there were highly-paid goofballs who had NEVER set foot in a classroom dictating public education policy. Thankfully, I eventually got "down-sized" from the Dept of Ed, and went on to much more productive endeavors, like unemployment.

24) Comment by timesright - 19/06/2012

No certification requirements for charter schools? Chas, are you trying to reduce the unemployment figures or open up job opportunities for your sister's friends? How right you are, Get Real, educators did vote for him and for Jindal. What a mistake it was! Unfortunately, they couldn't see the writing on the wall! There were some that could.

25) Comment by realworker - 19/06/2012

While we're at it, why not let anyone call themself a doctor and open a medical clinic handing out prescriptions. Louisiana politicians have NO respect for educators. Every legislator - along with Jindal and White - need to spend a week as a public school teacher. John White didn't need to be certified for the 6 months he spent teaching, so why does anyone have to be certified. These are children we are experimenting with, not lab rats.

26) Comment by warreni - 19/06/2012

@vicwill: Yep, as much as I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments, this is one of the dumber things that Louisiana has done recently. Presumably because there is no certification requirement there is also no requirement that the baccalaureate degree is even in an area vaguely related to what those teachers will be teaching so apparently having any qualifications at all is no longer a requirement to teach at a charter school. Well that's a mighty fine way to ensure that our kids are getting a top-notch education; I have to hand it to charter-school advocates like Roemer--this is definitely "innovation."

27) Comment by LawyerDan65 - 19/06/2012

Name one thing that a Charter School has done that was so good that it was adopted and promulgated throughout the public school system.

28) Comment by Get Real - 19/06/2012

Well the people elected Roemer and the only credentials he had was that he was a Republican. I laugh at all the teachers who supported him and now he's stabbing them in the back but good for them.

29) Comment by vicwill - 19/06/2012

And this is what happens when you choose to elect politicians instead of educators to the Board of Education. I am not even going to address that super ignorant comment by Roemer. I guess we can say the same thing about lawyers and doctors too right?