Letters: Gun ban in schools a dumb idea

I cried today as I heard about the shooting in Connecticut. Then I was angry. This country has not learned a thing. Banning guns at schools is the dumbest idea ever! No law-abiding citizen killed anyone with a gun. I do believe Columbine and Virginia Tech would have been either prevented or less tragic had guns been allowed. You’re an adult at 18. You can die for your country, but you cannot drink or buy a pistol.

No decision is ever perfect but had there been armed adults today, 20 little children may still be alive. Had I been there at least some of them definitely would have been. We must remove the ban on guns in school zones. My daughter’s life may depend on it.

Ron Tetzel

military

Addis

Comments

1) Comment by DMJ - 20/12/2012

I guess "few people" means 30,000 in the U.S. Funny....that doesn't seem like just a few. But hey, everyone... go get your Bushmaster today while you still can!!! Ugh.

2) Comment by Chucky - 20/12/2012

When people wore swords people where a lot politer

3) Comment by madbiker - 19/12/2012

guns kill very few people.

4) Comment by Warp7 - 19/12/2012

Ron you have got to be out of your mind! Arming everyone is definitely not the answer. Your response sounds like something one would expect from the ultra conservative group called the NRA. This is no time to be thinking yippy yo ca yo! It didn't work during the old west days and certainly would not work today.

5) Comment by 1ryben - 19/12/2012

What happened? Where'd the discussion go? Did I confuse people with the words listening and compromise? Am I just too late to the party? Did I wait too long to join in? I'm sorry, but I was busy trying to figure out what's truly believe. I was reading...a lot...about what other propose, what may be possible. The truth is that we will not ban all guns and we won't arm the masses so there must be something in the middle that yes, respects your right to own a gun but also protects lives. Every single gun starts is life as a legally acquired firearm. There has to be a way to lower the amount of illegal firearms round. Two middle school students ditched a loaded weapon in the trash can. How the heck is it possible that they can get their hands on such a thing? Don't point the finger solely at the parents. If it were that easy, there wouldn't be a problem. What are WE going to do about it? I'm not just talking about these mass shootings. WE HAVE A GUN PROBLEM! No, not a video game problem, no amount of prayer will solve it. This will take action from US. Every single one. NO, ARMING EVERYONE IS NOT A VIABLE SOLUTION! It's just not. To think so is delusional. Do we really want to live in a society that we have to assume everyone is loaded? REALLY? Can you imagine? It'll be carnage. Soot first, ask later. If I didn't shoot her fist you'd have to assume she would shoot you. I am a teacher, the last thing we need is to militarize the schools, different topic, but we've already sucked the life out of schools. Seriously though, why are we always so divided? Liberal (or the condescending progressive label), conservative, republican, democrat, left right up down....aaaaaaaaaaagh! When did the middle become a weakness? Compromise is not weakness! Show me a strong marriage and I'll show you compromise at work.

6) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

A new link to the article from HRoark's post. The advocate comment section screws up links sometimes --- http://tinyurl.com/3qwm2rz

7) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

nimby?, well said...

8) Comment by HRoark - 19/12/2012

Some useful and relevant reading: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun- threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html

9) Comment by nimby? - 19/12/2012

as 1ryben stated " Most of these mass shooters were "law abiding citizens" up to the point of pulling the trigger" , how do we identify them if they have no record , if someone knowing them does not come forth ? the one person who could have prevented this may have been the first to die . parents , please don't ignore your children ...

10) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

You might be too sensible for these comment boards, 1ryben.

11) Comment by 1ryben - 19/12/2012

Why can i buy as much ammo as I wish but there is a limit on over the counter allergy medication?

12) Comment by 1ryben - 19/12/2012

We can argue back and forth, but there is no denying that gun violence is a problem, not just mass shootings, but all gun violence. We can't, won't, and shouldn't outright ban all guns and I don't think anyone (well maybe avery small, insignificant few) is advocating for such. Most of these mass shooters were "law abiding citizens" up to the point of pulling the trigger. There has to be a way to limit the carnage. If we can't ban guns lets be realistic and say that arming the masses isn't possible either. Let's try something new, smoething unheard of...listening, compromise, you know, the things we used to do. Seriously, what can we do? I know in my deepest of hearts that there is a better way....there has to be...too mush is at stake.

13) Comment by coachblades - 19/12/2012

Wadep66 just to share some info with you during the day my guns are locked up. At night i keep a loaded shotgun beside my bed. Next up i might ruffle the feathers of some vets but here goes Yes i do believe owning a gun can stop an oppressive government. You say our military could easily impose its might on us people with its superior technology. Im not so sure....Look at what iraqi insurgents did with old assault rifles and home made explosives. We got the heck out of iraq pretty fast huh. What about afghanistan.. the insurgents there are riding mules through the mountains with 50 year old AK47's and now we are begging our president to get us the heck out. but anyway before i get addicted to this forum ....im out!

14) Comment by wadep66 - 19/12/2012

I wonder how many of the folks citing the 2nd amendment to own whatever kind of gun they want have actually read what it says? TEXT: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. So what does that really mean? What does the security of the free state mean? What is a well-regulated militia? And finally what is an ARM? A hand grenade is an arm, so are missles, torpedos and on and on. Every time someone tries to have a discussion, these same red herring arguments about the slippery slope or why not make everything illegal that can harm someone? Lots of things have been made illegal or taken off the market (bottle-rockets, ephedra, cocaine, etc) because of the harm they can do--so there is another argument that is weightless in favor of guns. If you really think your home will be raided by armed thugs and you will have time to go unlock your well-stored firearms you are paranoid and deulsional. Real data shows that armed intrusion is very rare. If you think that owning weapons will prevent a tryannical government from oppressing you, then you need to bring yourself into reality and look at the power of our military. Whatever your stance on owning weapons is, please use some sanity and logic in your arguments, because otherwise you undermine your cause.

15) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

(yeah, yeah, I know more people die in cars than by guns, which is why I think it should be harder to obtain and keep a driver's license as well. It's one of the reasons why I think people should drive less, in general. Also, cars are modes of transportations, not weapons, in case anyone is already queueing up a false analogy)

16) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

"I don't want to see a ban on guns, but it has to be more difficult to own and keep a killing machine than a car." Finally...someone with some sense. This is the point I"ve been trying to make (unsuccessfully)- easy access to guns increases the likelihood of gun violence. (see: recent massacre in Connecticut). Well stated, 1ryben. It's most difficult to have a discussion about gun control without the typical knee-jerk reaction: "You wanna take 'way my guuuuns!!!" It's like talking to chilidren. Thanks for a reasonable comment, a rare thing these days.

17) Comment by 1ryben - 19/12/2012

People argue that guns don't kill people then blame video games for the deaths. At least remain consistant. Video games, movies, television is no more to blame than the gun. it's just a skapegoat.

18) Comment by 1ryben - 19/12/2012

I dont think the "2nd amendment gives me the right" argument holds up. No one, one any news article or opinion piece I've read advocates for banning guns. No different than no one advocates banning speech. Yes, the first amendment gives you freedom of speech, but we have laws against certain speech. Try yelling fire in a crowd and see where your First Amendment rights get you.

19) Comment by 1ryben - 19/12/2012

I'm not sure where I stand anymore. I used to be against gun control, but now I'm not so sure. I'll post the few things that stand out to me and really made me think. I'm pulling from the many different sources. I'm a teacher so this really hits home for me. I only wish we, as a country can have a legitimate discussion about the issue. I don't want to see a ban on guns, but it has to be more difficult to own and keep a killing machine than a car, or sudafed.

20) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

Fjstephen, your response betrays your ignorance. The M16A1 has not been used in the military for quite some time. It was the only one that was full auto. All subsequent models A2-A4 have been semi and 3-round burst. While the 5.56 NATO may be a lower caliber round, but it contains 55 grains of powder and does considerable damage. One other difference between hunting rifles and the AR is magazine capacity. Hunting rifles don't have 30+ round capacities. you knew that of course but again deliberately omitted facts that didn't fit your theme.

21) Comment by Fjsteven - 19/12/2012

DMJ, you question betrays you. Adam Lanza didn't use an M-16 he used an AR-15. Do you know the difference? An M-16 is an automatic weapon, and AR-15 is semi-automatic just like many hunting rifles. The only difference between an AR-15 and a semi-automatic hunting rifle is the physical appearance of the gun. It shoots 223 bullets which is a very low caliber ammunition. Automatic weapons like M-16's are already illegal, and I'm not aware of anyone arguing for their legalization. However, AR-15's are good self defense weapon, and they are often used for predator hunting (coyotes, wild hogs, etc). They were also used by many during the LA riots years ago to protect their stores from looters and proved to be very effective weapons. And your statistics about those that carry firearm are more likely to use the weapons to harm themselves or innocents is complete propaganda. See my earlier posts that cite Gleck's study, the Cato institute's study and many others. Your paranoia about law abiding gun owners shooting up innocents has proven to be an unfounded fear. Most states in the union have concealed carry laws, and crime goes down in these states after passage not up.

22) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

Coach, you're correct....partly. But to say that this tragedy would have happened without easy access to guns is simply rejecting reality. The same day, in China, a guy attacked a bunch of children at a school...with a knife (guns are hard to come by in China). All 23 victims survived. Everyone that got shot in CT died. Something to think about... (No, I don't want to live in China)

23) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

Nimby, this Lanza guy knew how to use a gun. His mom had taught him well. Not knowing how to use it wasn't the problem. Having it in the first place was. Does anyone really think a civilian needs an M-16 with a high-capacity magazine?!!

24) Comment by coachblades - 19/12/2012

True that nimby. his mother does shoulder some of the blame

25) Comment by coachblades - 19/12/2012

My biggest problem with all this DMJ is as a teacher, gun owner, and human I see a country that has completely removed any responsibilty from individuals.As a teacher i see children everyday that have a medical excuse for everything. Cant do math or read..its dyslexia's fault, cant sit down shut up and pay attention....dont blame me its my ADHD's fault. You say guns are the problem. I say the person holding the gun is the problem. We have created a society where no one is to blame for their own actions its always something or someone else's fault. The person to blame for the shooting is adam lanza, not bushmaster, not glock, not berreta. Adam Lanza

26) Comment by nimby? - 19/12/2012

allowing children to sit in a dark room for hours staring at a video screen killing everything in sight doesn't help . they don't realize there is no re-set button , just game over . this wan't a gun control issue but irresponsible parenting .

27) Comment by coachblades - 19/12/2012

But that is where people on both sides dont agree. You see the problem as guns....I see the problem as declining moral fabric of society.

28) Comment by nimby? - 19/12/2012

respecting the environment you live in , being aware of what's around you is not living in fear . DMJ , as always I agree that someone not prepared to use a gun shouldn't own one . if my grandson decides he wants to carry he will do it legally , sign all the lines , dot the iiii"s and cross the ttt"s . he will face more scrutiny from me than anyone else ....

29) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

It's not just the laws; it's the culture. When a solution (guns) is the same as the problem (guns), perhaps it's time we re-evaluate things a bit.

30) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

Also... to successfully defend yourself with a gun from another person with a gun, you have to be ready. You have to have your piece out and ready at all times (not safe, by the way) or else, the perp will get the drop on you because guess what...an armed assailant is going to sneak up on you and get you when you're not expecting it. Constantly in fear, constantly clutching a weapon expecting to have to use it? What kind of life is that? You're more likely to imagine a threat than to encounter a real one (see: Trayvon Martin)

31) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

Gun owners are more likely to be shot than non-gun owners. Just sayin... Don't believe me? Look it up. If a person is packing, most likely, the most dangerous person they'll encounter is themselves.

32) Comment by coachblades - 19/12/2012

I agree the answer is somewhere in the middle. But the "middle" is a very large area. Middle left or middle right. Im not opposed to all gun control. As far as statistics for my daughters safety goes....Ill teach her proper handgun safety, she is smart and will learn. The only person who's saftey is at risk is the guy that wishes to do harm to my little girl.

33) Comment by nimby? - 19/12/2012

I'm guessing coachblades would be more familiar with his daughter , her sense of maturity , responsibility than those she has never met . gun laws , gun owners will face more scrutiny . my grandson lives just south of LSU , there have been a number of burglaries in the area . he works off GSRI til 1 in the morning . he's asking questions . he is a mature , responsible young adult who learned how to shoot and respect firearms at an early age . tho he leans politically towards the left he has genuine concerns as of the area he lives , works in . not being able to afford a move he is considering a handgun . after he goes thru due process we'll find something suitable to his needs ...

34) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

Interesting point... Here's the thing. We DO give up our 1st Amendment rights when it comes to public safety: we can't threaten someone, engage in espionage, commit perjury, incite a riot, etc. Why not have similar restrictions on our right to bear arms? Clearly, public safety is at risk due to easy access to firearms. Not sure how it could be any clearer. You guys talk about gun control in extreme terms- "completely give up my 2nd Amendment rights." I don't know any liberal who wants to repeal the 2nd Amendment and then confiscate all guns. The answer, I suggest, lies somewhere in the middle. Think about it. Meanwhile, look up some stats on self-inflicted gunshot wounds vs. defenstive shootings. Your daughter's safety could be at stake.

35) Comment by coachblades - 19/12/2012

No thanks..But i do have a deal to offer the gun grabbers. Ill completely give up my 2nd amendment rights if you guys completely give up your first amendment rights. No more free speech, no more freedom of religion the only religion allowed in the US is chritisanity and you must practice it. See you in church on sunday!

36) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

My, my, my, my, my.... etc. Thanks for proving my point. And by the way, statistically, there's a higher chance that she'll accidentally shoot someone (herself included) with that glock than use it defensively. Wanna protect her? Take that gun away from her.

37) Comment by coachblades - 19/12/2012

Sorry DMJ but i am not being selfish... Im not just standing up for my right to carry a firearm im standing up for my daughters right to carry hers, my wifes right, my mothers right, my grandmothers right. When the day comes that i must send my daughter out in this crime filled world i will send her with a glock. That glock will 99% insure she will never be the victim of a criminals evil intentions. Yes i am one of those "crazy" people that believe guns can prevent crimes.

38) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

A little something to think about in this whole gun control debate.... gun control advocates are concerned about other people, specifically, people that are going to be shot because someone was able to easily obtain a gun. Gun rights advocates are concerned about themselves. I always hear, "you wanna take away MY rights?" or "take away my guns?" something to that effect. Sure, they'll say they're concerned about other people's rights as well, and that may be true. If only they were AS concerned about the people that most definitely WILL be shot and killed as a result of lax gun laws in the United States. If only...

39) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

Fjsteven: As I stated much earlier, anecdotal evidence is just that: antecdotal. Am i expected to address every point of every poster when no one addresses mine? How many times do I have to rephrase this: Pandoras Box is open. There are over 250M guns in America. I have NEVER advocated taking anyone's guns, but going forward, we need common sense regulation. See my previous posts for examples.

40) Comment by Mrron - 19/12/2012

K so the news media changed their story- when I originally wrote this they said his mom worked at the school and he used pistols and a rifle was found in the car- they also identified him as his brother. I see it has changed. Regardless it was sad and shameful. FYI- 15 years as a cavalry scout (combat arms) before spending a few years driving trucks and pulling convoy security for the engineers in the guard-then the chemical field and weapons of mass destruction- if anyone wants a resume...

41) Comment by Fjsteven - 19/12/2012

Teas layer, it isn't false. I just cited examples that prove it is true. Secondly, I cited articles from CNN and the Cato institute. Nothing's from Fox News. If you don't want to ban guns then what's your beef? These studies also prove that armed and trained women have a much lower risk of being a rape victim. Why aren't you championing the right for women to bear arms and widespread education on firearms safety training?

42) Comment by old yat - 19/12/2012

Hey Tea_Slayer: I would like to thank you for your service to our country,being a armed forces veteran is something you should be proud of.No matter what your MOS was, cook,truck driver or riflemen. I do not know what happened to you during your time in the service but you certainly do not talk like someone that was proud to serve his country.As far as my comment being the" most vile strawman post "on this subject and that I should be ashamed of myself. The fact, that I stated was totally correct and you are right the Holocaust was vile but it did happen.Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you is labeled a moron or worse!! Well just let me say that I am ashamed that a young person who once wore a uniform and served his country has become so cynical that he can not participate in a meaningful dialogue without unleashing a diatribe against those who do not share his views.No matter what we think or say about gun control,concealed carry laws,teachers with guns,smoking,drinking,and Martin/Zimmerman the fact is 26 innocent people died at the hands of sick and evil young man.Why don't we all just say a prayer and thank God,no matter what God you bow down to,that this did not happen to your loved ones.GOD BLESS&HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL(even you Tea_Slayer)

43) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

here is the problem with trying to have a civilized debate: 1. I get flack for pointing out CBCS is a racist based on numerous comments directed at me. The evidence is right before you. I would show you the others but the Advocate closed the comments on the "Good school records rewarded" article. 2. People falsely attribute views and comments to me. " You said this has never happened." I never said that. I said that your statement that mass murders were prevented by armed civilians happens daily is false. If that were true, you wouldn't have to go to WND to get a list of these heroic acts. and when have I EVER made a statement that I want to ban guns? /// Sorry if my name choice offends Chucky's sensibilities.

44) Comment by DMJ - 19/12/2012

And who says Obama detractors are paranoid? This is ridiculous.

45) Comment by coachblades - 19/12/2012

Either way guys i really dont think president Obama wil restrict gun sales in America....Afterall gunsales is the one thing that has improved since he took office. Obama has been the best thing that could have happened for the firearms industry....Bah..zing!

46) Comment by Chucky - 19/12/2012

Slayer - somewhat violent of a name you choose, as white woman something gentler like 'downy planter' name calling 'racist. is so wrong yea yea if the names fit and all the old stuff, talking about guns and not personal V.

47) Comment by Fjsteven - 19/12/2012

Teanslayer, What about the other half of the stories below that cited armed civilians? You said this has never happened. The facts on accidental firearm eaths of children under 14 annually in the US Are listed here. The number ranges from 23-64 according to CDC. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2935511/posts More children die in swimming pools and bathtubs each year. I'm waiting for your posts to ban bathtubs. You probably don't want to ban bathtubs because their benefits outweigh their consequences. The same is true of firearms. Way more crimes are prevented each year than committed by the same firearms that you want to ban. More than 2.5 million crimes are prevented annually by gun owners each year. http://www.cato.org/blog/new-cato-study-tough-targets http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/19/opinion/bennett-gun-rights/?hpt=hp_bn7 http://rense.com/general76/univ.htm

48) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

You see, CBCS seems to think I am a black man so he chose to call me boy, has made offhand remarks about having a White Christmas, etc. For the record, I am a white woman and CBCS is a racist.

49) Comment by CountryBoysCanSurvive - 19/12/2012

@ Tea_Slayer careful boy the people are catching on to you!

50) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

And I do know Ron Tetzel. I deployed with him with to Afghanistan in 2002-2003. Veteran status does not confer special powers. He was in construction, not combat arms. I stand by my assertion that I would not trust him with a weapon at my son's school.

51) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

"The truth is that every single day mass murders are averted by armed civilians." - absolutely false statement. Over half of the examples you cited were either , police, store employees, or paid security. And for every single instance of someone "saving" others by shooting robbers, there are multiple instances like these --- http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8059958/Dad- accidentally-shoots-son-outside-gun-shop /// http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/20068424/police-father- accidentially-shoots-son /// http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/28/justice/connecticut-father-kills- son/index.html /// those were just the first three that came up from doing a google search of "dad accidentally shoots son"

52) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

' because there is always a zimmerman or a whatnow who know beyond doubt some undesirable is up to no good." kinda like this guy who is trying to use the "Stand Your Ground" law in FL? --- http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-12-18/news/sfl-pizza-joint- 20121218_1_pizza-pie-poor-service-silver-bullet -or this guy --- http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/20237357/candlelight

53) Comment by Chucky - 19/12/2012

As it is said, a lock only keeps a honest person out. My guns are loaded and my knives are sharp.

54) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 19/12/2012

first off, I apologize for using the phrase ***** Unfortunately because I used that term, some posters will fixate on that alone and never even read the meat of my argument, which no one has successfully refuted. "Oh and last thing. HE KILLED THEM WITH PISTOLS not a rifle!" Um, no. He used the AR. Knowledge IS power. -- http://news.yahoo.com/conn-school-victims-shot-rifle-multiple- times-205207737.html

55) Comment by postscript56 - 19/12/2012

whatnow - i forgot i was talking to a bunch of five year olds. so let's review. trayvon martin was bashing george zimmerman's head in because zimmerman was stalking - then confronting - martin. it was the gun that made zimmerman feel powerful. it was the gun that made zimmerman feel he had a right to act on his suspicions. and it was the gun that made martin dead. if zimmerman is not carrying a gun it is almost a certainty none of that would have happened. if we have open carry laws in this country there will be thousands of incidents like that. because there is always a zimmerman or a whatnow who know beyond doubt some undesirable is up to no good.

56) Comment by NearBarbarian - 18/12/2012

@Whatnow--I missed that "textese" statement. I agree. That's not appropriate either. Both The_Host and his foil Tea_Slayer aren't helping matters with that kind of ad hominem garbage. It's one thing to periodically get testy and snarky, which is going to happen in the sorts of informal debate occurring here. It's another to shut people down, intimidate, and the like.

57) Comment by Fjsteven - 18/12/2012

MBW and tea slayer are absolutely wrong that are med civilians haven't prevented mass murder. On Oct. 1, 1997, Luke Woodham, 16, part of a satanic cult, stabbed and bludgeoned his mother before driving her car to Pearl High School in Pearl, Miss., where he shot dead two students and wounded seven others with a rifle he made no attempt to conceal. He then got back into his mother’s car and planned to go to Pearl Junior High School to kill some more. But assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a .45-caliber pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham. On Jan. 16, 2002, Peter Odighizuwa, 43, of Nigeria, went to the Appalachian School of Law campus in Virginia with a handgun and killed three and wounded three others. At the sound of gunfire, two other students – both police officers – retrieved guns from their cars. Meanwhile, another police officer and former Marine jumped Odighizuwa and disarmed him by the time the other officers got to the scene. On Aug. 23, 1995, a band of crack cocaine addicts entered a store in Muskegon, Mich., with a plan to kill everyone and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their habit. One member of the gang shot store owner Clare Cooper in the back four times. He still managed to grab his shotgun and fire on the gang as they fled. They were all apprehended. On Dec. 9, 2007, a 24-year-old gunman named Matthew Murray launched an attack on the congregants of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs that left two victims dead. A former police officer, Jeanne Assam, a member of the security team for the church, shot Murray 10 times, killing him, as he was shooting at her. Murray had killed four others at a church 70 miles away earlier in the day. On July 24, 2012, Richard Gable Stevens rented a rifle at a shooting range in Santa Clara, Calif., and herded three employees out the door, saying he intended to kill them. One of the employees, however, was carrying a .45-caliber handgun and shot the assailant. On Dec. 17, 1991, two men armed with stolen pistols herded 20 customers and employees of a Shoney’s restaurant in Anniston, Ala., into a walk-in refrigerator and locked it so they could rob the establishment. However, one customer was armed with a .45-caliber handgun hidden under a table. He shot one of the gunmen dead. The other robber, who was holding the manager of the restaurant at gunpoint, began firing at the customer. But he was wounded critically by return fire, ending the incident. On July 13, 2009, an armed man entered the Golden Food Market in south Richmond, shooting and wounding a clerk while firing at store patrons. He was shot by another customer who had a concealed-carry permit, likely saving the lives of eight other people in the store. On July 29, 2012, Charles Conner shot and killed two people and their dogs at the Peach Tree RV park in Early, Texas. Vic Stacy got a call from one of the neighbors, got his .357 magnum and shot Conner in the leg. Police arrived before any further killings could take place. The truth is that every single day mass murders are averted by armed civilians. Yet, every time there is a horrendous slaughter like we saw at the Sandy Hook Elementary School, there is a knee-jerk outcry for stricter control of guns. Read more at http://mobile.wnd.com/2012/12/how-to-stop-the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/

58) Comment by Whatnow - 18/12/2012

postscript56, "Regardless of what you believed happened, I think everyone can agree the kid did not deserve to die over it." Then he shouldn't have been trying to bash Zimmerman's brains out of his head.

59) Comment by Whatnow - 18/12/2012

NearBarbarian, so saying ***** is civil, reasonable conversations?

60) Comment by MBW - 18/12/2012

A suicide bomber blows up a cafe in Israel killing 26 people and we're "outraged" and demand action... but when someone in our own country walks into a school and shoots 26 people, nothing happens. How effed up is that?

61) Comment by MBW - 18/12/2012

There were at least 2 people with concealed weapons at the shooting in Tucson....but several people still died and Gabby Giffords was permanently wounded. I thought guns were supposed to stop this, right?

62) Comment by MBW - 18/12/2012

Hey, here's a great idea: instead of having only one shooter at your child's school, how about arming teachers and students and having 2 or 3 shooters instead? Brilliant!

63) Comment by MBW - 18/12/2012

Where is the evidence in support of allowing more guns??? There has never been a SINGLE instance of a mass shooting that was stopped by an innocent citizen with a gun. NEVER.

64) Comment by Mrron - 18/12/2012

Bravo, dialog, it a good thing. I agree, we do not need to own every type of weapon created in our homes, nor do I believe that the 2nd amendment is Gods law. He has etched those laws on stone already. Our society has chose to push Him aside- THAT is the real problem. Abuse and misuse of ANY tool can and will cause damage/death. In that, cars, alcohol, meds, knives, baseball bats, and plain old rope ARE all included in the same argument. She (Tea) knows that. Springer, I thank you, however there are more qualified people than me. The issue is not gun control/bans didnt work in Columbine- the laws in place suffice. Enforcement of is the issue. Tying Drs hands for the sake of the "privacy act" is a major problem as well when dealing with mentally ill, could have should have notified law enforcement or someone if Dr diagnosed possible homicidal tendencies- as well as Columbine, OKC, Colorado, Viginia Tech.... Oh and last thing. HE KILLED THEM WITH PISTOLS not a rifle! Knowledge is power. As people lets fix ourselves.

65) Comment by postscript56 - 18/12/2012

I own several and know how to use them. I never had to use them on another human being, though. I think I could if i had to, but I pray to God I never have to find out. One of the reasons this country will never be invaded by a foreign power is an armed citizenry. It would require too much manpower against too much resistance. So I'm not opposed to gun ownership. But two things here just puzzle the heck out of me. How can anyone believe that more people carrying more guns will result in fewer incidents of gun violence? For every (union?) teacher who whips out a handgun and shoots a murderer before he can murder 20 children, there will be a dozen incidents of some action hero wannabe mistakenly shooting someone he thought was suspicous. Isn't that how the Martin/Zimmerman thing started? Regardless of what you believed happened, I think everyone can agree the kid did not deserve to die over it. Second, the founding fathers could have plainly said gun ownership was an inalienable right. They did not. They established the conditions for extending that right. Those conditions no longer exist. We have a standing military. When you join or are drafted, the military issues you a weapon. I support gun ownership, but the 2nd ammendment does not specifically say the right is inalienable. People who are arguing for universal type ownership and carry laws and those arguing the 2nd ammendment is some kind of God-given never-to-be-infringed-upon right are both just wrong. Shool shootings cannot be solved with gun legislation alone. But open carry and worship of the 2nd ammendment is no answer at all.

66) Comment by NearBarbarian - 18/12/2012

My, my: @The_Host's examples of civil discourse are ubiquitous on the Advocate's comment boards this evening. Regardless of whether one agrees with @Tea_Slayer, at least he attempts to sustain relatively civil, reasonable conversations with others. Some might play video games for hours on end, but some choose to debate and dialogue with others about the topics of the day. Lastly, the only one who has introduced excrement into the conversation is @The_Host.

67) Comment by The_Host - 18/12/2012

Wow Tea Slayer you are a one idiot show on this board. Do you take meds for your delusions and are you seeking the proper help for you OCD posting habits? I count 20 posts out of 80 from you alone, that would be 25% of all posts so far good job. All cheer Tea Slayer the be all end all that we should all bow to for he is such the intellectual superior. Don't believe me just wait he will be along shortly to tell us all how great he is, he is like Obama Lite. But leaves the same shat in the mouth aftertaste on a budget.

68) Comment by Springer98 - 18/12/2012

@ Tea_Slayer, I sincerely wonder if you really know Ron Tetzel or if you do how well you know him. The Ron Tetzel that I know & have known for years spent 3 tours of duty in Iraq & Afghanistan! If anyone would be qualified to carry a gun to school, it's him! It's hard to understand how anybody that is so against guns, can own one. Don't you think that is hypocritical?

69) Comment by potkcalb - 18/12/2012

i don't claim to know the answer to the gun violence problem. But i can pretty well guarantee that with guns in the hands of everyone it's going to be mayhem as never seen before. We now have a population of youths and young adults who have no qualms about using weapons as the first resort to settle disputes, to get even, to take revenge for slights and insults real or imagined.

70) Comment by Sidwit - 18/12/2012

Oops, that's "men" not "amies." Everyone needs to take a deep breath and take a step back. This administration has an agenda and this terrible act plus the other four that have occurred during the first four years of the O administration allow them to politicize the killings. Fast and Furious was meant to accellerate their agenda, but it backfired on them. It's time to pray for these victims and their families, it's not time for rhetoric and knee jerk reactions.

71) Comment by Whatnow - 18/12/2012

nimby? I would have no qualms shooting someone who is attacking innocents. And that's the chance worth taking. Don't you think?

72) Comment by Sidwit - 18/12/2012

Mr. Bouncer, Switzerland requires all amles to serve in the military and pretty much all homes have guns. In South Africa, owning a gun is conditional on a competency test, background checking of the applicant, inspection of an owner's premises, and licensing of the weapon by the police. Minimum waiting period frequently exceeds 2 years from date of application. Their population is about 50 million, of which 35-40 million are black, yet their homicide by gun rate is 59 per 100,000, with a total of 31,000 gun murders and 11,000 gun manslaghters per year. In 'gun crazy' USA, the rate is about 3.5/100,000 on a total of 10,728 gun homocides. The incidence of rape in South Africa has led to the country being referred to as the "rape capital of the world". One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year. More than 25% of South African men questioned in a survey published by the Medical Research Council (MRC) in June 2009 admitted to rape; of those, nearly half said they had raped more than one person. Three out of four of those who had admitted rape indicated that they had attacked for the first time during their teens. South Africa also has a high record of car hijackings when compared with other industrialized countries. A South African insurance company, Hollard Insurance, stated in 2007 that they would no longer insure Volkswagen Citi Golfs manufactured in the previous two years as they were one of the most frequently hijacked vehicles in South AfricaCertain high-risk areas are marked with road signs indicating a high incidence of car hi-jackings within the locality. Guns are not the problem.

73) Comment by coachblades - 18/12/2012

The difference in you and I Tea slayer is I believe all parts of the constitution apply to everyone. Even the amendments we dont like. Im christian..Do you think I like the spread of atheism and islam (radical islam kills many people each year too)? No i dont! But i'll be the first to stand up for the rights of an atheist or muslim to pray to whatever god or no god because that is what FREEDOM is about. Do you think i like allowing "free speech" when it goes against my beliefs? NOPE but i will defend WITH MY GUN your right to do so. So i will pray that i never have to use my gun for protection but if I do ill have it! I will pray for those kids and adults invovled.....because the constitution of MY country says i can. SO AGAIN ill keep my guns and you can keep arm yourself with quick wit. No if you will excuse me im going hunting.

74) Comment by Whatnow - 18/12/2012

Tea_Slayer, why do you have to use vulgarity to get your point across? Yes, and I like the fact that if attacked I can protect myself with something that will kill or maim. It works better than words or beanbags.

75) Comment by nimby? - 18/12/2012

for all those thinking if they had been there , armed that they could have made a difference pause for a moment and think . are you prepared to point a weapon at another human being and take a life ? this isn't target practice . even the most avid hunter can get buck fever . only in this case your prey will be shooting back . he will kill you , take your weapon and use it on others .

76) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

Guns are created to KILL or MAIM whether "for protection and for hunting". Nothing else on your list is created for that specific purpose. That is why it is a ridiculous comparison.

77) Comment by foldgers - 18/12/2012

Guns are created for protection and for hunting, like a car is made for transportation, a knife is made for cutting food or meant as a tool, a hammer is made for nails, a rope is made for tying things together, a bat is made for sports, a bathtub is made for bathing, electricity is made for running electrical items and so on. Yet, everything on this list could be and is used for killing and suicides if the person using one of these is wanting to murder or kill themselves. I have an AR-15 locked in my gun cabinet. LOCKED in there. Granted, I do not use it to go hunt, but I do like knowing I have it in case, for some reason, my house is being raided by a bunch of thugs. Much easier to protect yourself in a situation like that than with a hand gun. The only time it leaves my house is when I go to family land to practice using it. But then again, I consider myself sane enough to not use it to bring harm to innocents.

78) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

yes, I am right because you conveniently left out the part where the drunk INTENTIONALLY hit someone with his car. Keep trying, though. You are just providing more evidence of how this car vs gun argument is false

79) Comment by coachblades - 18/12/2012

OH you are so right. Perhaps you should read the article on this very website about the greenwell springs man that was arrested for hitting and killing another person while drunk....I suppose that other car voluntarily jumped out in front of him while he was driving drunk. And thats a combonation of car and alcohol if only we could ban the combination of drinking lots of alcohol then getting in a car we could maybe stop that sort of thing from happening

80) Comment by coachblades - 18/12/2012

Oh wait a dollar store on goodwood was robbed at knifepoint. If only someone had been armed with your quick wit this crime could have been prevented. I have my guns and you have your wit...lets see which one works best when someone wanting to do you harm comes around.

81) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

doubling down with more false comparisons, eh coach? Pathetic attempt. Tobacco: you can't force anyone to smoke against their will, i.e. no smoking indoors except in bars and no one is forcing you to go inside. Alcohol: again, no one forces anyone to drink. If they did, that would be assault. So maybe you want to reread my post. I specifically stated " INTENTIONALLY kill others". maybe you missed the last word i just quoted. Again, read my previous post about these ridiculous false comparisons and get off of your soap box. It's rickety and about to collapse.

82) Comment by foldgers - 18/12/2012

Tea-Slayer, Just devil's advocate here... smokers are allowed to smoke in some bars and in casinos. Forcing those who want to go have a fun time and gamble to inhale second hand smoke. Same goes for the dealers that work there. Just saying. And all this talk of what actually does the killing... let's just get stupid here and chop off every person's hands. Try pulling a trigger, drive a car, stab someone, swing a bat at someone, hit someone with a crowbar without hands. Murder would drop to darn near 0!!!

83) Comment by coachblades - 18/12/2012

False comparison?? its a fact. But if you want to punish all gun owners for the sins of a few go right on ahead. While we are at it why not just eliminate anything that could cause harm to anyone "intentionally" Smokers and drinkers purposely put poisons into their body....Lets ban tobacco and alcohol. People that eat fried foods high in salt know its bad for them but they do it anyway. lets ban it! Icecream serves no real purpose and everyone knows icecream causes obeseity...lets ban it.

84) Comment by foldgers - 18/12/2012

Well, I believe we can thank the current administration for this news story breaking today: "A gun found at the scene of a shootout between a Mexican drug cartel and soldiers where a beauty queen died was part of the botched “Fast and Furious” operation, CBS News reports. Authorities had said that Maria Susana Flores Gamez was likely used as a human shield and that an automatic rifle had been found near her body after the Nov. 23 shootout....." - - The same guns they want to ban here in America, were ALLOWED to go across the border by the government!

85) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

hey coach, how many people used cars to INTENTIONALLY kill others? How about surgeries? See my previous post about what you can do with your false car comparison...

86) Comment by coachblades - 18/12/2012

Glad to see everyone on here is blaming EVERYTHING and EVERYONE except for the one person that should hold all the blame....THE KILLER. The killer was crazy. He wanted to take lives, plain and simple. He was the kind of kid that grows up to be a serial killer. Systematically killing victims one by one doesnt make you famous anymore. Everyone knows ted bundy, john wayne gacy, son of sam. But in recent years serial killers dont get our recognition unless they do something really crazy. No one outside of Louisiana knows who Derek todd lee is. These mass murderers are nothing more than serial killers with different goals. Many of you say people "dont need assault weapons" Ok...we also dont need cars that can go faster than 70mph either do we so lets ban any car that can go faster than 70. After all cars cause more deaths each year than all guns much less assault weapons. Lets also ban unnecessary surgeries such as plastic surgeries. people die every year doing those too.

87) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

wherearewegoing, that you would admit your error is admirable. So I will share my thoughts as you asked...we should regulate gun ownership much the same as car ownership. And like I have said before (but i will use a different metaphor this time), the genie is out of the bottle. there is no way to reverse the course of gun ownership at this point. there are way way too many guns out here, but that doesn't mean that law regulating the sale and transfer shouldn't be enacted. No one is going to take your guns (or mine) but just don't try to convince me we are safer with even more guns on the streets. My final though, every gun began it's life as a legal firearm. It was manufactured legally and sold legally. So where do "illegal guns" come from? From supposedly responsible gun owners who had them stolen or those who used the "gun show" loophole to sell them illegally.

88) Comment by Being_Stupid - 18/12/2012

Voting Democrat is also a dumb idea.

89) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

Yes, cars kill... but is that their stated purpose? No, they are designed to transport...but while we are on this subject, maybe we should regulate gun ownership much the same as car ownership. Clear title transfers at ALL points of sale, mandatory training (written and practical), health restrictions, liability insurance, etc...who is on board? If not, ***** about cars killing people...

90) Comment by Whatnow - 18/12/2012

DMJ, that boy had snapped before and yes, the guns should have been locked up. The only reason those children survived in China was because he was slashing not stabbing. Knives kill people too. Cars kill people, too. Baseball bats kill people, too. They all do it on their own without the owner or perpetrator. The just get up all by themselves and go nuts. Stealth bombers program themselves and just go around killing civilians on their own. There is always a person behind every slaughter. An evil mind is enough, because if they want to kill, they will find a way, just like the Uni-bomber and the 9/11 murderers did. This is a mental health issue. They are not being helped or they are medicated with meds that have very bad side effects. Since 1982, there has been at least 62 mass murders across the country. Acute paranoia, delusions and depression are all common mental illnesses among these killers, with at least 35 committing suicide on, or near, the scene. More than half, showing signs of mental illness prior to these shootings. http://www.katc.com/news/the-mental-illness-behind-mass-murder/

91) Comment by foldgers - 18/12/2012

Oh, don't get me wrong, I do NOT think students should be armed and I would have to think about teachers, since students could easily jump their teacher and take the gun, but I do think there should be a security guard or two at every school, armed.

92) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

"Guns don't kill people; people kill people." True... kind of. Consider this... on the same day as the shooting in CT, a guy stabbed 22 people in China. All 22 survived. Every child shot in CT died. Clearly, an evil mind is not enough. Guns most definitely DO kill people.....about 10,000/year in the U.S. (compared with less than 1000 in all of Western Europe, which has a population 50 million greater than ours). Also... this Lanza guy WAS a law-abiding citizen...right up until the piont that he snapped. There were guns around, one of which was an assault rifle. This was totally preventable. Well...it would be, if people at least acknowledged the problem.

93) Comment by foldgers - 18/12/2012

Blame China! They invented gun powder!!! That my friends, was when Pandora's box was opened. Look at all those villages in Africa who are unarmed? They get slaughtered by their self appointed leaders all the time. The right to bear arms was for the protection from a country's government. If government knew it's citizens were not armed, they could control EVERYTHING we do. That is why it was put in the constitution. And I would bet that those who believe there should be limitations with the 2nd amendment are all about the one saying being born here makes you an automatic US citizen, no ifs and or buts. When in FACT it was created in the beginning so that all those slaves born here were now citizens. It wasn't meant for people coming over just to have their babies so their babies could be a citizen of this country. But, then THAT amendment is absolute, not the 2nd, right?

94) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

I'll be honest, i didn't see that it was an security guard at the actual theater. My bad. I thought she was working somewhere nearby and came and helped. Sorry. MY BAD, EVERYONE! You still haven't commented on the other story I posted about the old man helping the police officer that was pinned down by a lunatic with a rifle. And it still doesn't change the fact that a gun fixed the situation, and had she been just a CCP holder with a gun, the same outcome would've arisen. Lives saved....by a gun toting good American citizen.

95) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

Tea-Slayer...I've read many of your comments on here, and you and I differ on many things, but I want you to know just a little bit more about my thoughts on gun control. If you wanted to raise the age for buying a firearm to, say, 25 years old, I might be ok with that. I think you should also set the age for alcohol at the same age (it's much more dangerous and more abused) but I'm ok with doing these things. I also think teaching gun safety in schools is needed, as well as how to be a responsible gun owner, if one chooses to own a gun. We have these classes for cars, don't we? Some of the far right would jump all over me for these statements, but I think it's the responsible thing to do to help make sure that people understand firearms and the responsibility that comes with owning them. I just can't see why people won't admit that outlawing guns and/or ammunition would either cause more problems than it would fix, or at best it wouldn't change anything other than the methods people use. Your thoughts?

96) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

The fact that you PURPOSEFULLY omitted the fact that he was working security at the theater proves that you were obfuscating. And I have been one step ahead of your "whipping". As far as my education on firearms, (as one of my fellow posters used to say) continue to assume...

97) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

" it's the sick or evil person using that gun." OK, i'll bite. So why then do the NRA and many of the posters here fight any changes ion gun laws that would keep guns out of the hands of these "sick or evil" people? For instance, closing the gun show loophole?

98) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

But I wasn't saying that you have used that technique, but other liberals before you.

99) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

I don't need $5 words to whip you.

100) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

I didn't say he was a bystander. Keep up with me, please. And, I don't know how familiar you are with the definition of "close range" or how familiar you are with the size of a typical public restroom, but it certainly qualifies. It's ok, though. You can blame ignorance, as you obviously aren't very educated on firearms or the lingo. I acknowledged that it was an off duty officer. Did you skip that part? I guess not since you quoted it in your post. What I then said was that anyone could have done that if the had to courage to do so (I don't want to take anything away from this heroic act). In the multitude of instances where law abiding citizens guns were used to commit crimes.....name instances and I will tell you why, in each instance, the gun is the least of the problems. I have my first child on the way and when he gets into this world I will, upon his ability to crawl, purchase a gun safe to RESPONSIBLY lock up my guns. He will never know the combination until I deem him fit to handle this responsibility. See how that works? It falls on ME, as a PARENT! Why don't you blame this kid, blame his parents, blame his other mentors. Those people made mistakes long before the guns ever came into the picture. Again, guns are not the issue here.

101) Comment by Whatnow - 18/12/2012

DMJ, you said, "Guns don't prevent shootings; they cause them." No it's the sick or evil person using that gun.

102) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

"Just try not to take things out of context, or post facts that, while true, do not have much to do with the topic at hand." show me where i have done that...the overused RW "arguing technique" is obfuscation. I'll give you time to look up that word.

103) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

wherearewegoing:I'm not pickign tiny parts, your entire argument is weak. I could find many more instances where "law-abiding citizen's" guns were used to commit crimes (like they were in Connecticut). Anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. As far as your statement " he was an off duty officer who ran up and shot the guy at close range", try reading the entire article. "An off-duty police officer working security at the Mayan Palace eventually cornered Garcia in a restroom, shooting him several times until she could take his gun." He was working at the theater as SECURITY. He wasn't just a bystander. Try to keep up

104) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

"That old man stopped a crime." True, but to say he saved their lives is a LIE.

105) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

I'll give you time to carefully attack tiny parts of my comments instead of the main issue. Just try not to take things out of context, or post facts that, while true, do not have much to do with the topic at hand. That seems to be a very overused liberal arguing technique.

106) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

And your "just robbing them" attitude is exactly what I would expect from a liberal. Ridiculous. How would you like to "just" be robbed? That old man stopped a crime. He's a hero. Who knows who that could have been come into that store. Could've been a neglected white boy with daddy issues who stole his mom's gun and just wanted to hurt some innocent targets. Moral of the story is that citizens with guns isn't a bad thing and it's certainly not the root of the problem with these mass murders.

107) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

But you guys say that honest, law abiding citizens with guns can't help, when they help all the time. And he was an off duty officer who ran up and shot the guy at close range....any concealed carry citizen could've done that (if they had the stones to). You picking it apart because it wasn't one man saving 30 children from a lunatic. Just because the circumstances weren't exactly what i guess you need them to be to shut you up doesn't mean that you aren't wrong!

108) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

Ok, here's another: http://deadlinelive.info/2012/08/07/armed-citizen-in-tx-stops-shooting-spree-and-saves-cop-by-making-150-yard-shot-with-a-pistol/#respond Citizen in a trailer park.

109) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

wherearewegoing: One was a POLICE OFFICER. He was doing his JOB. The second case cites the elderly man as "saving" the patrons which is not the case. Were the robbers intent on killing all of the patrons or just robbing them? Luckily, the old man didn't shoot any innocent bystanders.

110) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

old yat, yours has got to be the most vile strawman post concerning this topic. You should be ashamed (but of course you won't be securely enveloped in your NRA bubble)

111) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

Here's another: http://lewrockwell.com/spl4/heroic-armed-citizen.html

112) Comment by wherearewegoing - 18/12/2012

@Bouncer "For starters, America has plenty of arms, pretty much one gun or more per person, and NONE of these mass shootings has resulted in one "good" person with a gun producing it and shooting the shooter." That's because no one ever has a gun during those mass shootings. That's the point! Sometimes that good person with a gun stops the mass shooting before it starts. Case in point: http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/12-17-12-texas-movie-theater-shooting-creates-chaos-and-fear-but-quick-thinking-security-guard-steps-in/

113) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

The_Host: typical tripe from you. Have you tried to go out and buy a bunch of Ammonium Nitrate lately? Its sale is highly regulated. shall we do the same with guns? --- http://www.dhs.gov/ammonium-nitrate-security-statutes-and- regulations

114) Comment by The_Host - 18/12/2012

Biggest mass killing in this country by a lunatic was performed using nothing more than some ammonium nitrate fertilizer, diesel fuel and a U-Haul Truck. Not a gun in sight. Imagine that!

115) Comment by old yat - 18/12/2012

Hey Folks: Let me run this by you.In 1933,a small country in Europe decided to outlaw guns which led to the populace being disarmed.For the next 12years that same country murdered 11million human beings including 1.1million children.These people were not soldiers just ordinary folks like you and me that had no means to defend themselves or their families. That event was the Holocaust. Do you really think history can not repeat itself,you better think again!!!!!GOD BLESS&HAPPY HOLIDAYS

116) Comment by billynurse - 18/12/2012

DMJ - Without a trigger finger in them, no, they don't kill.

117) Comment by Bouncer - 18/12/2012

Here are some revealing figures. Last year, handguns killed 48 in Japan, 8 in Great Britain, 34 in Switzerland, 52 in Canada, 21 in Sweden, 10, 728 in The United States. For those of you bent on the "mental health" question, please bear in mind that each of these developed countries exhibits similar levels of mental health levels within their population. The idea that the way to fight this problem is to arm more people is just the most hilarious and stupid suggestion. For starters, America has plenty of arms, pretty much one gun or more per person, and NONE of these mass shootings has resulted in one "good" person with a gun producing it and shooting the shooter. The avenging citizen leaping to the rescue is Hollywood tripe. It is just excruciating what rabidly "pro-gun" people tell themselves, while conveniently blinding themselves to the blindingly obvious. It gets to a willful level, and I cannot help but see them as in some respects complicit in the deaths of innocent people.

118) Comment by nimby? - 18/12/2012

as I said earlier unless they are from a military background trained in the use of firearms arming teachers isn't agood idea , they are teachers . in this country we have retired vets , vets returning from overseas . how many schools in the USA ? depending on its size if each hired at least one , lotta returning vets employed , schools should be safer . many retired personnel are parents , grandparents who would be more than happy to donate there services ...

119) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

A little something to chew on until then... The New York Times, Dec. 15, 2012: Page A1: “Gunman Massacres 20 Children at School in Connecticut.” Twenty children shot, 20 died. Page A9: “Man Stabs 22 Children in China.” Twenty-two received knife wounds, 22 survived. Still think guns don't kill people?

120) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

I'm getting tired of this debate. I'll save the rest of my arguments for the next mass shooting...

121) Comment by twinkie1cat - 18/12/2012

Right! Teachers carrying guns. My little severely handicapped kids used to swipe my cell phone out of my pocket and hide it in their friend's wheelchair. They thought it was hilarious. What if it had been a gun instead? Administrators are often incompetent and got their jobs because of who they know rather than what they know. A loose cannon principal who got in a fight with his wife before work has a gun? I don't think so. We try to develop an atmosphere of peace and acceptance in the public schools. Guns are not part of that equation. And in college. Picture that. Half drunk fraternity boys with guns! Great huh! Guns and education do not mix and that school could have had 20 teachers with guns and it would not necessarily have stopped the violence up north. I don't think anything would have.

122) Comment by Lannonmac - 18/12/2012

Of course my previous post was stupid, but frankly it is not far from what the Mr. Tetzel is advocating and that was my point. I really don’t have a problem with citizens obtaining a concealed carry license and carrying a firearm; because that means that they have undergone some rudimentary gun safety and firearm training and are registered with the authorities. But if I had a child in a school where the teachers, office workers and lunch lady were packing heat I would be more worried about them going off their rocker than the chance of a random killer. Overall allowing more people to carry firearms is a very poor solution to the problem of maniacs massacring school children. I think it is obvious that there is no single thing we can do to guard against a tragedy like this, but if we approach the problem of random massacres on a broad front of mental health care issues, tighter control over military grade weapons and community policing, we might have a chance to make an impact. Otherwise, we are going to continue being held hostage by maniacs every time we leave our homes.

123) Comment by Being_Stupid - 18/12/2012

I also blame MTV and the Music Industry. Lot of this Black on Black Crime can be directly attributed to the Thug Music Culture that has taken over the Black Youth. They idolize thugs like Snoop Doggy, Two-Pack Shaker, and Biggie Smalls that sing songs about getting revenge and killing each other. I remember before the early 1990s when Black Entertainment and Black Entertainers like Bill Cosby inspired black kids to get an education, drink a diet coke, eat a jello pudding pop, and do something important with their lives. Now all the Black Entertainment coming out of Hollywood just inspires black kids to be thugs and traitors to their own race.

124) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

"If I had only been there with my gun...." says every yahoo who thinks he would have prevented a mass shooting. Lemme ask you....in a nation of somewhere between 250-300 million firearms and roughtly 1/2 of people gun owners...why hasn't anyone ever successfully prevented a mass shooting? Answer: because no one knows when/where one will occurr, obviously. The level of preparation that would be necessary to actually equip the entire nation to successfully prevent the next mass shooting is unattainable. Statistically, there's a greater chance that someone will accidentally shoot themselves or a member of their own family rather than to successfully thwart a shooting.

125) Comment by Being_Stupid - 18/12/2012

Lannomac make a lousy straw-man argument.

126) Comment by Bwaites985 - 18/12/2012

The answer is not the banning of guns, but to have armed security officers on every school campus. Had there been security people on campus, they would have been able to limit the damage that the shooter did. There would have been less loss of life. You cant prevent crazy people from going crazy, or criminals from committing crimes but you can prepare for it, and security officers at every school is like an insurance policy for your child.

127) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

"We have a Second Amendment right to arms in this country, That is not going to go away....get over it" As I stated before to Bighug, Pandora's box has been open too long. I hope the cost of your "freedom" is worth it. You own this tragedy and all others like it. And please Attila, show me where i said anything about banning guns? Please, please find just one instance.... You can't. You can't argue against my statements so you call me a chicken little feably try to put words in my mouth. That is typical of the idiotic gun nuts. Unable to argue substance. And as I also stated to Bighug, you have absolutely no soap box on which to stand. And as far as your statement "Today's paper had an article about 20 plus children in China being stabbed and cut in a school there. I guess the next thing you misguided souls will want to ban is knives" I am glad you brought it up. Care to guess how many of those children are dead? ABSOLUTELY NONE --- http://tinyurl.com/bw69xsd

128) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

The Advocate comment section seems to destroy links so here are new links to the articles I posted. Mr Meli, in his own words, stated that the shooter's weapon was jamming ""He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side."" On an AR style weapon, when the bolt is locked to the rear (as in when you are clearing a jam), you release it by slapping the side (and hitting the Bolt Release). That is why the killer decided to take his own life at that point. His gun was malfunctioning. Not because a man hiding in a store may or may not have pointed a weapon at him. http://tinyurl.com/clnfzes //// http://tinyurl.com/cym4wxs

129) Comment by Attila - 18/12/2012

Lannocac: Unless you were making your comments tongue in cheek your analogy is just plain stupid.

130) Comment by Lannonmac - 18/12/2012

I agree! Let’s arm all the students and let them protect each other. Lord knows if those 6 year olds had been packing an Uzi things would have turned out differently! I propose that we hold statewide cake sales to raise funds for buying students firearms. I suggest shotguns for the elementary students, AR-15s for the middle school children and flame throwers and RPGs for the high school students! Sounds like a great leap forward in Louisiana’s educational priorities.

131) Comment by Attila - 18/12/2012

IF a teacher or other school official(s) had been in possession of a licensed firearm, or even an unlicensed one for that matter, this horrific incident would have either been prevented or vastly minimized. Tea Slayer, DMJ, and all of the rest of you Chicken Little's who believe that gun control will solve the problem are a large part of the problem. You hysterically oppose allowing trained, licensed, educators who possess a legal concealed carry permit to use their training to stop such atrocities. You can outlaw ALL gun possession and it will not stop these senseless acts and you know it. Just another example of the symbolism over substance remedies parroted by the left. Today's paper had an article about 20 plus children in China being stabbed and cut in a school there. I guess the next thing you misguided souls will want to ban is knives...then when deranged or mentally deficient people use baseball bats for their mayhem you will want to ban them. We have a Second Amendment right to arms in this country, That is not going to go away....get over it.

132) Comment by Being_Stupid - 18/12/2012

The Movie, Natural Born Killers is what caused Columbine.

133) Comment by Being_Stupid - 18/12/2012

We need to boycott Liberal Hollywood from churning out these violent movies and T.V. Shows. Movies like Natural Born Killers is what caused Columbine. And this recent shooting seemed to be inspired by video games. The problem is not guns, the problem is Hollywood.

134) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

More agagent lies.... What evidence, besides the word of Mr Meli, indicates that the Portland Mall shooter committed suicide because Mr Meli pulled his pistol then HID for fear of shooting a bystander? The only people praising his as a hero are the gun nuts and himself. More likely, the fact that his gun kept jamming so much caused him to end it ---http://www.katu.com/news/local/Jacob-Tyler- Roberts-Clackamas-Town-Center-court-documents- 183851651.html /// http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man- armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

135) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

The problem wasn't that there weren't armed people there that day; the problem was there WAS an armed person. Guns don't prevent shootings; they cause them.

136) Comment by Being_Stupid - 18/12/2012

The Clackamas Town Center Shooting in Oregon was stopped by a shopper who was armed with a gun and concealed weapons permit.

137) Comment by Being_Stupid - 18/12/2012

The problem is violent video games and violent movies.

138) Comment by Being_Stupid - 18/12/2012

Teachers need to be trained and equipped with non lethal weapons like tasers.

139) Comment by DMJ - 18/12/2012

Ah yes...more guns in circulation. This should solve the problem....of course, it'll make the initial problem worse...but hey, we could always solve that problem with the same solution, right? Ugh. Mr. Tetzel is right about one thing: This country hasn't learned a thing.

140) Comment by agagent - 18/12/2012

Connecticut is one of about 10 states that does not mandate treatment or remove the mentally ill from the public to preempt violent behavior. The state legislature defeated such a law this year, with the help of the ACLU, and that law could help shield the public from potential mass murders.

141) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

"No law-abiding citizen killed anyone with a gun." What a ridiculous argument. Until the very moment these mass-murderers pulled the trigger, they were all "law-abiding citizen[s]"

142) Comment by agagent - 18/12/2012

Connecticut has one of the most severe firearms control laws in the country. We can limit firearms to law abiding citizens and law breaker will still have weapons.

143) Comment by agagent - 18/12/2012

The firearms involved in the incident were legal to the killer's mother, and they should have been locked away. The mentally disturbed must not have firearms, and legal owners must prevent others from getting them. Mass murders choose easy targets, including school no gun zones. The killer in the Portland area mall committed suicide when a legal carry man drew a pistol on him. The Connecticut killer committed suicide when he heard the approaching police sirens. We must increase security and make potential murderers fear approaching “easy targets” like schools.

144) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

Bighug, you F-ing gun nuts have had your way. A law abiding, supposedly responsible gun owner had her guns taken from her, was shot and her LEGAL weapons were used to murder children. You have absolutely NO soapbox on which to stand. Hoard your guns, if it makes you feel any better. We all know Pandora's box has already been opened. You and your lobby opened it. I hope the lives of innocent children is a low enough price to pay for your "freedom"

145) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 18/12/2012

I know SGT Tetzel, I wouldn't want him carrying a gun in my son's school.

146) Comment by Bighug - 18/12/2012

As soon as the anti-gun nuts get their wish and have assault rifles banned, you will hear their argument changed from "you don't need (fill in with any type military weapon) to hunt or target practice" to the argument that the 2nd Amendment specifically allows citizens to own weapons for military use, so you don't need a shotgun or target pistol to arm a militia.

147) Comment by gvm - 17/12/2012

The last thing that needs to come out of the tragedy in Newtown are laws allowing local yahoos to carry weapons in, or around, schools. I am a gun owner and a hunter and I don't have a problem with a ban on assault rifles. That would seem to be a more effective way of reducing incidents such as these. Adding more weapons to the mix is like throwing gas on a fire...unintended consequences usually result.