Panel debates value of Jindal school changes

Gov. Bobby Jindal’s far-reaching, but divisive changes to public education in Louisiana, particularly new state aid for some students in low-performing schools to attend parochial and private schools, prompted extensive and inconclusive debate at two panel discussions Wednesday morning.

The panels, which included three lawmakers who fought against most of Jindal’s proposals, were organized by Metro Councilwoman Ronnie Edwards.

“Unfortunately, when you don’t always agree with the dominant theory going forward, you are portrayed as an obstructionist,” said state Sen. Sharon Broome, D-Baton Rouge, who served in the Legislature since 1992. “And that’s the last thing I want to be labeled as, an obstructionist. I came to be a catalyst for change.”

Another panelist, Eric Lewis, is Louisiana director of the Black Alliance for Educational Options, a pro-school-choice group that strongly supported Jindal’s agenda, which was approved during the legislative session that just ended Monday.

Lewis told the audience of about 50 people at the Delmont Service Center on Wednesday that ever since New Orleans began its private school voucher program in 2008, parents from across Louisiana have been clamoring for similar alternatives to traditional public schools and now have them.

“There had to be a sense of urgency,” Lewis said. “I understand that things were fast, but we didn’t feel that we had time to wait to give better options for children.”

Jindal’s education agenda included HB974, which makes it harder to earn and retain teacher tenure, and HB976, which expanded eligibility for some students in low-performing public schools to attend parochial and private schools using state tax dollars.

Patricia McFarland, who used to work on charter school issues for the state Department of Education and retired in 2007, said she is a supporter of school choice but the speed with which the changes were approved and are being implemented scares her.

In her experience, McFarland said good charter schools take at least a year to organize, whereas these changes are taking place in a matter of months.

It’s possible the new schools, charter and private schools funded by vouchers, will be no better, or perhaps worse than the traditional public schools families want other options to, she said.

“My greatest fear is that kids are going to be trapped in one failed school after the last,” McFarland said.

Veronica Brooks, policy director for the Louisiana Association of Public Charter Schools, was more positive about the changes, but said the next few months will be key.

“There is a lot of good stuff, but at the end of the day, it’s how we implement them and making sure that they work that’s important,” Brooks said.

Carlos Sam, interim superintendent of the East Baton Rouge Parish school system, disputed the idea that Baton Rouge public schools are a big problem, noting the school district has one of the fastest rates of academic improvement in the state.

“We think we are the schools of choice in Baton Rouge,” he said.

State Rep. Pat Smith, D-Baton Rouge, said that she and other lawmakers pressed supporters of the changes to hold private schools more accountable but to no avail.

For instance, the original version of the main bill the Legislature debated would have allowed private schools to not offer special education services, Smith said. Private schools can still find ways around not having to offer such services, she said.

“They can put you in the school and then tell you they don’t have the services to provide to your child,” Smith said.

State Rep. Alfred Williams, D-Baton Rouge, said the new vouchers will help only a small number of children in low-performing schools. Meanwhile, the loss of revenue to traditional public schools will mean a worse education for the majority of children who remain, he said.

Broome, Smith and Williams all voted against HB974 and HB976 as well as the creation of the proposed Southeast Baton Rouge Community School District.

Comments

1) Comment by teacherguy - 15/06/2012

@ByGeorge...okay, I see your point. However, you must understand that teachers are not the SOLE factor here. One time I stood up for what was right (seeing three 8th grade black kids attack a 6th grade white kid, breaking his leg) I was told the Central Office would not back me up in court because I was White, the kid was White, and the perps were Black - this was ten years ago. I sure as hell wasn't going in without back up. In another stand up for what is right instance, a behavior disordered kid beat up a boy I let go to the restroom, and special ed laws prevented them from doing anything more than to send him home for the rest of the day. The kid I let go to the restroom went to a private school for the rest of the year. I got written up for being insubordinate when I called for justice. It has been strongly contested in an UT of Austin study that charter schools have a 3 times higher drop out rate for Black students than public schools...mainly because when justice is called for and granted...they quit going to school. So, we are in a Catch 22, sir, discipline at will...turn the deviants on the streets while everyone is at work. Discipline according to efforts to reform behaviors (the public school requirement)...and calling for effective teachers in every classroom is a ideal, not reality, because we will leave. The key to keeping effective teachers is to provide job security (feeling their job is safe and will promote a career) and raise pay...the key to losing them is to take away job security. Public schools must accept any kid that shadows the front door, whereas the other schools may "make decisions as to room allowed", even a 15 year old, I assume both of us are not, can see where public schools are going to be stuck with left overs no one else wants to teach. But those teachers staying, by making them "at-will" employees (making tenure a near impossible holy grail to attain), it allows Jefferson Parish to start the process of firing in mass so they can be rehired at lower salaries (law states teachers can't be paid less than the previous year) and the fear that current teacher salaries will be frozen indefinitely as years of experience and higher degrees are no longer locked to wanting to hang around any longer. How long will it be before demanding more effective teachers for each classroom finds classrooms filled with people not willing to invest their lives into being an effective teacher? Effective teachers are cultivated over time...But more importantly, what is an effective teacher? Someone who makes kids WANT to explore topics in interesting and meaningful ways...or someone who teaches them to bubble in answers on tests that more accurately determines if a child knows the definitions to a set of 280 vocabulary words (history, science) ? I am a parent...and a teacher...and what is coming is Pre-final test/Post-final test/pre- mid-term/post-mid-term/pilot tests/etc. I do not wish to see my child assaulted so much with testing...and it is unfair to do this to public schools when privates/charters get a "free pass" on all of this accountability using the same tax dollars as public schools. I'm going out for the day...but I will check to see if you are still engaged ByGeorge...

2) Comment by ByGeorge - 13/06/2012

The problem is as most teachers refuse to see, teaching occurs in the classroom. A teacher teaching a child in extreme poverty with low test scores, no one at home to support the basics, comes to school hungry, sleeps in class from being care giver to little brother and sister while mom is at work, dodges drug addicts/pushers, hears gunshots all night must be a VERY effective teacher to be an effective teacher. You should be having this argument with your principal not me. It was not my job to provide you with a school environment where your students felt safe to learn and you felt safe to teach; it was your principal’s job. Please allow me to remind you that almost to a person principals and administrators are other educators. Likewise, I didn’t take over your school. Other educators took over your school. Anyway, I have already stated somewhere on this very thread that the situations which you describe involving inner-city schoolchildren are real tragedies. They are. I am sorry and I understand that my sympathy and $2.25 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. In the search for cheaper coffee, let’s take the discussion outside of the inner city of Baton Rouge for a moment. Just yesterday, here in Hammond there was an article in our local news rag where the principal of our single city public junior high school stated that the reason for her school’s dismal academic performance was [she claims] that more than 50% of her students are coming to her 3 or more grades behind. Let me make two points: 1) there are only two city elementary schools which feed the junior high school, 2) our junior high school starts in the 6th grade. If 6th graders do not know what third graders should know, the problem is not Hammond’s society. Not that we don't have our serious problems here with Hammond society. In fact, I do my best to highlight the hypocrisy running rampant here which seeks to ignore Hammond's problems. Yet no serious person would ever equate our problems with the problems in inner city Baton Rouge or maintain that Hammond's societal problems are the reason that 6th graders think like 3rd graders. (Unfortunately in Hammond we have many educators who are not serious people.) Enough of this. Let's you and I solve this problem. I admit that there are effective teachers. You, a bit more reluctantly, admit that there are ineffective teachers. So we agree that there are effective and ineffective teachers. This is a good start. Can we now agree that given a choice we both prefer effective teachers in our children's classrooms? Now, let’s address these problems you list which you see teaching in the inner-city. Let’s agree that inner-city society is hosed. You come up with your 10 things wrong with it, and I’ll come up with my 10 things wrong with it. Now… let’s toss both our lists in the fire because if we are both older than 15 (at least one of us is), we have learned that society is not going to fund the correction of even one item on either of our lists. Where does this leave us? Well… let’s see…. Ah… yes…. we have agreed that there are effective and ineffective teachers and that we prefer effective teachers. Seriously, if you do not see that you are responsible for educating the children in your classroom, and that you are responsible for holding your bosses (other educators) accountable for providing you with the capability to teach effectively in your classroom, there is no hope for public school education in this state. You said on another thread that you were happy that it was teachers who are responsible for bringing a lawsuit trying to stop MFP dollars flowing to private and parochial schools. Can't you be equally happy demanding that an effective teacher be in every child's classroom? And why is it not teachers who should lead the fight to insist that their educator bosses allow them to do the job that they have been trained to do inside their classrooms. Where is that lawsuit? These are the hills you should be charging. This is where you should take the battle. The right for a quality education FOR EVERY CHILD is the flag you should drape yourself in. Then at least you will be fighting for something of consequence. Teachers may list the problems in society or fight the problems in society. But the fight to right the evils of society is just another lost cause unless that battle is fought in the classroom.

3) Comment by iluvbtr - 13/06/2012

@teacherguy - Thank you for taking the time to educate those in our community that don't have a true understanding of the issues in our high-poverty schools. Some people just don't get it. Unfortunately, the misinformed will attempt to label you as an obstructionist, supporter of the status quo, or a unionist protecting your own self interests. Your comment would be a great letter to the editor. Thank you for continuing service to our state.

4) Comment by teacherguy - 12/06/2012

@ByGeorge - the problem is, as many reformers refuse to see, the proposals that would help students the most are outside of the classroom. Let me ask you this, how effective must a teacher be to teach a child in extreme poverty with low test scores, high absenteeism, no one at home to support the basics, comes to school hungry, sleeps in class from being care giver to little brothers and sisters while mom is at work, dodges drug addicts/pushers, hears gunshots all night? Sir, many of the teachers left in the most failing schools in EBR manage the mess no one else will manage. When I worked in EBR, there were days that I clung on to making a kid smile as the highlight of my educational output for the day. Over time, more than the TFA's two year commitment teachers, I learned the culture I was in and gained the trust of older siblings as truly caring and we saw tremendous gains in test scores in my classes. None-the-less, we were consistently demoralized by state take over because our scores were not good enough. But the day I was attacked by a 16 year old 8th grader who was under investigation for a murder he was later sent to Angola for, and his friend, while I was trying to restrain a behavior disordered student wanting to fight an innocent bystander...well, that was the LAST year I taught in an inner city school. (And my close friends went with me, as this was the icing on the cake...not an isolated incident.) My question is, who WANTS to teach in an area where teacher failure is certain, like a school with high poverty, and the heartbreaking atmosphere I have described above? I've taught in inner city BR and suburban Livingston parish...I make about $5000 less in Livingston and pass up about 15 EBR schools along the route to go to work...and you couldn't pay me ENOUGH to go back to EBR. I take that back, I might do it for $75k.... Anyways, this year (160 students), only 4 of my students scored unsatisfactory, 12 scored approaching basic, and 87% scored Basic and above with the rest. Interesting to note, I am looked to as a mentor teacher as having the best numbers in my subject area in my school! Due to the attitude of students/ families in EBR, it has been abandoned by families that could move to Livingston, Ascension, and W. Feliciana...students, teachers, leaders, etc. If they could get out, they did. You, sir, are missing the point...there are effective teachers in EBR, but you can't see them using statistical analysis of test scores that more accurately reflect the neighborhoods their students come from. Sure there are ineffective teachers, in each system...but by demanding an effective teacher without providing opportunities for those effective teachers to "TEACH" is short-sighted reform.

5) Comment by ByGeorge - 11/06/2012

@teacherguy -- If you want to argue with someone about Bobby Jindal's eduation reforms, it ain't me you're looking for. This guy Sherman writes a column for my local news rag so I know of him. In fact, I saw his fifteen proposals there and was underwhelmed. Subtract the proposals that address issues outside of the classroom (tenure, White, the call for increasing high school/college dual enrollment courses (I'm sorry scams), abolishing DOE, the bit about North Korea, his anti-charter school position, the size of schools, the separation of church and state) and you are left with very little. But if you would like to use what's left as the basis for discussion, fine..... with one caveat: we add a demand for an effective teacher in every classroom.

6) Comment by teacherguy - 10/06/2012

as for as reform teachers can believe in: here is a plan taken from Dane Sherman in the Hammond Newspaper:Louisiana education is in a state of chaos, and the crisis we face is self- inflicted. Our elected officials and their appointed lackeys are not listening to teachers, parents, or children. They don't listen to average taxpayers and citizens either. However, they do listen to powerful special interest groups such as the American Legislative Exchange Council and Blueprint Louisiana. Our state deserves better than this madness. I will provide 15 necessary steps that should be taken for legitimate K-12 reform. First, class sizes at struggling schools should be capped at 15 students and at stronger schools no higher than 20. This alone will solve most problems overnight. Second, parents must be held accountable. I'm sure there are enough laws on the books already to address this, but the laws have to be enforced. Third, let's put universal early childhood education in every community. In other words, provide a Head Start for every Louisiana child. Is this expensive? Yes, but so is the monumental price of ignorance. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, and we don't seem to mind paying the bill. Fourth, college preparatory classes need to be offered en masse at every high school. Louisiana has a successful program called Early Start to enable high school students to earn college credit. This is the right approach, and it needs to be expanded. High school students must be challenged. Fifth, teacher tenure has to be strengthened, not destroyed. When “challenging” students realize how easy it is to get rid of teachers, the game is up. With the new tenure rules, it will be so easy to fire teachers that enterprising students could get unpopular or difficult teachers canned. Of course, a big purpose for tenure is the right for due process, particularly necessary for dealing with incompetent and ill-informed administrators. Sixth, new State Superintendent John White has to go. White's hiring by BESE shows that the old status quo system of corruption is alive and well in the Pelican State. It's just like the old saying, “It's not what you know but who you know.” Seventh, get rid of the entire Louisiana Department of Education. If we can't get rid of it completely, let's make it small enough to put the entire operation inside a building the size of an average coffee shop. Rank-and-file workers aside, the LDOE causes little more than mischief. Eighth, be consistent in evaluating teachers and students. Constantly changing the rules midstream is insane. Let's require the state to keep a formula in place for at least five years, long enough to gauge the success of any existing program. Ninth, flush online learning. The real plan for Louisiana education “reform” is to make charter schools online where the big money can be taken. I listened to the debate in the House of Representatives confirming that the new charter school rules would allow teachers in North Korea to teach our children online if approved by BESE. I was dumbfounded and you should be too. Tenth, all schools need good libraries and certified librarians. It's essential for literacy. Eleventh, create a ratio of main office expenditures vs. classroom expenditures. In other words, the parish school boards and administrative offices should work in T-buildings and the classrooms should have the Taj Mahal. The state's best school district, Zachary, had a small makeshift headquarters for several years. They put the money into the schools. In addition, reward school districts with the lowest administrative overhead by giving them bonuses. And cut high-paying “do nothing” positions at the school board office for those just waiting to retire. Twelfth, every strong school should be paired with a struggling school. The staff and faculty can work together to make improvements. Thirteenth, struggling schools should not have more than 400 students. It's much easier to right a small skiff than an ocean liner. Fourteenth, there must an absolute fiscal and vocal commitment by higher education officials in assuring outstanding teacher education programs statewide. Last, keep Catholic schools Catholic. In other words, do not violate separation of church and state with government money. Some of the best schools in Louisiana are parochial and private, but to stay this way, they can't take government money. Besides, the public schools are strapped as it is. Teachers, clip this newspaper column and use it every time a legislator asks how we can improve K-12 education. Elected officials, pay attention. Voters, parents and students must demand this kind of real reform. We can't afford anything less in the great state of Louisiana. Dayne Sherman lives in Ponchatoula and is the author of Welcome to the Fallen Paradise: A Novel. Follow him on Facebook, Twitter, or his blog at daynesherman.com.

7) Comment by teacherguy - 10/06/2012

ByGeorge...teachers manage the ***** that is given to them to teach on a daily basis and make strides where the average human being would quit...and 50% of teachers do quit within the first 5 years. People like you, and sir Bobby Jindal, will decrease...not increase...the amount of capable teachers willing to do what no one else will. Someone down there talked about voucher schools and charter schools having better test scores than the public schools...view what we are doing to the state...setting it up with the RSD New Orleans as the template and how well it is doing. This is what is coming to EBR: http://educatenow.net/wp- content/uploads/2011/07/2011_Voucher_vs_RSD_Performance _by_School.pdf

8) Comment by ByGeorge - 10/06/2012

@iluvbtr -- As I am not easily convinced that my own reform ideas are correct, I find no difficulty in believing that Bobby Jindal's are also flawed. Yet I have convinced myself of this: reform must occur in the classroom and it must be driven from the bottom up not the top down. You say you are not for the status quo but the status quo among educators is to look for reasons outside of the classroom why their jobs inside the classroom can not be accomplished. Teachers have charged up this hill for the last fifteen years. Look around. The field is strewn with your dead and wounded. Go collect them. Teachers talk as if they think society is going to take a time-out, decide to fix its problems, agree on how to fix its problems, fix its problems then call time-in so that teachers can teach our state's youth. This is not the way the world is. Learning occurs in the classroom. When it does, if it does, a teacher is somehow involved. God bless her or him. Or it doesn't. If it doesn't, when it doesn't, a teacher is somehow involved. Perhaps that teacher is not at fault. For instance, perhaps the teacher is the top-ranked teacher in the school. In that case, maybe it would be easy to believe that some other factor is involved. For example, maybe we can agree that since the child is on free-lunch we need to lower our expectations for that child. Maybe if 74% of the students are on free lunch in that district, we shrug our shoulders and say "By George, the world is as it is." When I say that Louisiana's educators don't have a clue what they are doing and that worse than this, they don't even know what the issues are that they should be addressing I mean that teachers are fighting the wrong battles. Somehow, at some point teachers took on the job of charging society's impenetrable hills. A teachers job is in the classroom. Return to the classroom.

9) Comment by iluvbtr - 10/06/2012

George, by "on par" with the rest of the nation I was comparing Louisiana's scores with the national average, not with the of Massachusetts or Mississippi. But you do drive home my point about poverty. Massachusetts has approximately 10% of its population living below the poverty line, Louisiana's poverty rate (ranked 49) is 17.3% and Mississippi's (ranked 50) is 21.2%. I looked at Tangi's numbers compared to other districts in the state with similar free and reduced lunch populations. The average scores of the other districts with approximately 74% free and reduced lunch were not significantly different than Tangi's score of 87.8. I should mention that I am not advocating status quo. We can clearly do better than we are. I am advocating meaningful reform. What was passed by the Governor and this legislature is not reform and it will not change the numbers or the rankings we are discussing. That being said, for the sake of my city and my state, I truly hope I am proven wrong.

10) Comment by ByGeorge - 10/06/2012

Yes, it is a tautology that in any ranking there will always be a first and a last. And yes educators and politicians flavor their measures of performance to both remove and to insert meaning, distinction and difference according to their tastes. Yet to my mind, where Louisiana ranks vis a vis other states is a meaningful measure of Louisiana's performance. Anyway, I categorically state without fear of contradiction that where Tangi ranks in comparison with other districts (low) is a meaningful measure of its performance. I was not using ACT scores as a measure of teacher effectiveness. I was using ACT scores as a tenuous handle (until you provide me your data) to assess your claim that Louisiana performs on par with other states in middle-class to middle-class student attainment. I certainly have no interest in parsing ACT scores with you nor am I interested in entering the rabbit hole to discuss the effects of socio-economic factors on education. Sure, Finland is nice and it would be great if we could shrink, stretch, scratch and stuff ourselves into that teapot. But we don't live in Finland. You are making a mistake in thinking that I am anti-teacher when I state simply that teachers do not understand on which front they should be fighting the education battle. By educating our youth, teachers are our nations socio-economic levelers. This necessarily means that teachers do not get to use socio-economics as the reason why they can't do their jobs. Sorry about that. PS: If Louisiana's score of 20.2, below the national average of 21.1 with a low of 18.7 (Mississippi) and a high of 24.2 (Massachusetts) is not "statistically significant" then it can only be because one of us is misusing the term "statistically significant". Since I didn't use this term, it ain't me babe. Warning: You are making a mistake if you assume that I don't know my way around numbers.

11) Comment by iluvbtr - 10/06/2012

@ByGeorge— There are lies, there are outrageous lies, and there are statistics. I’ll begin by stating the obvious. Where a state ranks or where a school district ranks isn’t meaningful as a measure of performance. In the USA there will always be a state ranked first and there will always be a state ranked last. A more accurate comparative assessment of performance requires a thorough evaluation of the data to include the percent of students in the state taking the ACT, the percent of students taking the ACT that qualify for free and reduced lunch, the percent of students taking Core+ classes and then determining whether or not there is a statistical significance. The information provided on the website wasn’t detailed enough to evaluate all of the factors, but if you look at the following results from the 2011 ACT testing you will note that Louisiana’s performance when compared with the national average is not statistically significant. 2011 Louisiana Black/African American Average ACT Composite Score : 17.5 2011 Black/African American National Average ACT Composite Score: 17.0 2011 Louisiana White Composite Average ACT Composite Score: 21.7 2011 White National Average ACT Composite Score 22.4. State and district rankings based on a single standardized test tell us much more about the socio-economic condition of the school's, district's, or state's student population than they do about the quality of the teachers. Meaningful reform would focus on early childhood education with the goal of increasing the percentage of low socio-economic children beginning school kindergarten ready.

12) Comment by ByGeorge - 09/06/2012

@iluvbtr -- Ah... the world is as it is. But can we agree that private schools may do as they believe the market will support and that charter schools - where they can avoid it - since they are public schools should not have selective admissions criteria? My point was that many traditional public school programs are also selective. And my concern is that one of the outcomes of traditional vs. charter school competition will be that we will find this more and more. (I am thinking for a third time about the recent decision of my parish's school system to offload - there is no other way to state it - the education of its "at-risk" students to a "virtual learning base."). I won't bore you with a response to your comment regarding the "underlying causes" of why Louisiana's children are not learning except to say that while I understand the importance of these issues, if a child comes to school regularly, these issues are not determinative and study after study has shown that the one factor that is determinative (again, assuming the child attends class) is an effective teacher. [This is typically the point when the discussion gets bogged down into the specific cases of little Johnny and little Jane who are never in class, never have school supplies, just got out of jail, just moved to a new foster home, etc... I do not intend to make light of these real human tragedies. What I am suggesting is that specifics of this type which I do not deny that teachers live with in their individual classes do not advance the general discussion. During the recent debate, I never got the feeling that teacher groups understood this. ] Regarding studies, I searched and searched for data to validate your claim that Louisiana's middle class public school students are on par with the middle class students from the rest of the nation. If you point me to your data, I would be happy to look at it. (It did occur to me to check by comparing ACT scores state by state. Presumably these are your college-bound middle class students. By this measure Louisiana ranks 39th out of 50 and is a full point below the national average.) But I am inclined to believe that even if your statement is true, it matters but little. I live in a district which is ranked 53rd out of 67 (68?) districts in the state. We have almost 20,000 students in our public school system. I would be the first to admit that there are 60 students in this parish who can compete with students from the best schools from the best districts in the state. Two are three can compete with the best students nationally. But if I ask myself how this statement is meaningful, I have a hard time coming up with a good answer. What is the better indicator of my districts overall performance, its ranking or the fact that can produce 60 good students? Since I live here, this is a question I can easily answer.

13) Comment by iluvbtr - 09/06/2012

@ByGeorge -- The point of the story is that private schools and many charter schools have selective admissions. Although charter schools will deny that, most have processes that are designed to weed out problem students and those with special needs. Our traditional public schools must accept all students. The point is that the education legislation does not address the underlying causes of why children living in poverty aren't learning at the same rate as those that don't. Our state doesn't have a problem educating children from middle-class families. The test scores of our middle-class children indicate we are on par with the rest of the nation. By the way, I completely agree with your statement that "Mr. Vollmer did not equate teaching children to the process of making ice cream". The process of educating children is much more complex than making ice cream. I also agree that there is "nothing wrong with cutting unnecessary bureaucracy in schools...".

14) Comment by Scrooge - 08/06/2012

Being_Stupid is an ardent foe of "socialism" but not when his kids can use socilaist taxpayer funds to attend private schools. IHe is opposed to socialism except when is is for it. He writes , in true validaiont of his nom de plume, "PRIVATE SCHOOLS & CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE SCORING WAY HIGHER ON THESE TESTS THAN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM" yet Louisiana ACT scores are bottom of the Nation while it is reasonable to conjecture that much greater percantages of private school students take the ACT. Unfortunately, the assertion of higher scores is not true, when the data is available. I do agree with Mr. Stupid that his forum name is an appropriate one for this state.

15) Comment by ByGeorge - 08/06/2012

@Being_Stupid -- There are no socialists in Louisiana and you do not advance your argument when you pretend that there are. @iluvbtr -- You tell a nice story. But it is a story with several conflicting and erroneous themes. First, find me the person other than this "Mr. Vollmer" who is insisting that public schools be run like a business. "Mr. Vollmer" is not on the same side of school reform as are most rational (meaning those reformers who are not stupid or are being stupid) school reformers in this state. Anyway, he is not on my side. Second: the average Joe sees nothing wrong with cutting unnecessary bureaucracy in schools, government or in business. I ask you to explain why teachers do. Third, your "Mr. Vollmer" did not equate teaching children to the process of making ice cream. Your group of ignorant hostile school teachers did. (It reminds me of a recent effort by a teacher guy who attempted to make a similar analogy about education and the building of roads.) Fourth, the idea that public schools in this nation and in this state (and in my parish) do not discriminate on the basis of academic potential is a fallacy. What is a magnet school? What is IB? What are "at-risk" programs? "At-risk" of what? [Aside: Just two days ago in my parish, the school system made the decision to disband its programs for at risk students in favor of "virtual learning" programs for them. According to the local news rag, the school system obtained this idea from a recent article in Education Week. (If legislators really wanted to improve our schools, they would place a ban on teacher subscriptions to Education Week.) A day later, it was announced that this same school system voted to spend $200K on building a shooting range at one of its parish high schools. You can not make this stuff up. ] Relatedly, where are we? fifth I suppose.... while it is true that schools - in a mis-guided attempt to be all things to all people - have expanded their areas of incompetency beyond that of just educating children, their primary purpose remains to educate children. Unfortunately, Louisiana's brand of ice cream is ranked among the lowest brands sold in America (even if one adjusts its flavors to those preferred in Finland).

16) Comment by Being_Stupid - 08/06/2012

The Socialists blame everybody but themselves, while at the same offer no solutions to the problem that they created. Blame the parents, Blame the bad kids, Blame the infrastructure and the buildings, Blame lack of funding, Blame, Blame, Blame, while at the same time offer no solutions. And then spread lies about testing. NEWS FLASH !!! PRIVATE SCHOOLS & CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE SCORING WAY HIGHER ON THESE TESTS THAN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM. The only people that want to outlaw testing is the Teacher's Union and the Left, not the people on the Right. Keep the Testing! Abolish the Failing Public Schools! Abolish the Teacher's Union! and Abolish Socialist-Atheist-ACLU Mandated Mind Control of Our Public Education System. Convert to Vouchers Now !!!

17) Comment by iluvbtr - 08/06/2012

"If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn't be in business very long! I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. You could cut the hostility with a knife. I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging 'knowledge' society. Second, educators were a major part of the problem: They resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure, and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. ... In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced -- equal parts ignorance and arrogance. As soon as I finished, a woman's hand shot up, a veteran high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload. And she did. "We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream." Best ice cream in America, ma'am. "How nice. Is it rich and smooth?" Sixteen percent butterfat, I crowed. "Premium ingredients?" Super-premium! "Mr. Vollmer, when you ... see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?" I send them back, I said. With that she jumped to her feet. "That's right! And we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it's not a business. It's school!"

18) Comment by redstickhornet - 07/06/2012

The value of the changes? Well let's just measure the progress made by the students. Study how much value the private school teachers are adding to the scores.They are going to score higher in private school right? Oh shoot, wait, they aren't going to be tested using the same accountability metrics used for public schools...

19) Comment by bourbon-soda - 07/06/2012

@brhope - was it conservatives who destroyed the community school?

20) Comment by Your Brain on Steroids - 07/06/2012

****Comment Removed for Violation of Terms of Use****

21) Comment by brhope - 07/06/2012

Give the public something to be proud of when it comes to schools and education. Kids and teachers are learning in some of the worst buildings in the city. Give each community a facility and system to be proud of, and it will turn around. But that's right, we are in a conservative state so social services are purposely driven into the ground so they can promote "private alternatives". The general public needs to stand up for what that want when it comes to "public services". I would be happy to pay taxes on new schools, new roads, a great public transportation system, and should I dare say universal healthcare. There was a time for private systems, but our city is growing and we need to stand together and take care of one another.

22) Comment by bourbon-soda - 07/06/2012

@ByGeorge, no offense meant. I understood your point, I think. I like double negatives & think they should be legalized in English as in Spanish. Thanks for offer. Is there a stipend?

23) Comment by ByGeorge - 07/06/2012

@bourbon-soda What I am trying to get past is the touchy keyboard on this d*mn computer. I'll make a deal with you. In the future if you don't understand what I mean by my posts, ask me and I will clarify my comments for you. Since I write in haste, I need a good editor. If you will sober up, the job is yours.

24) Comment by bourbon-soda - 07/06/2012

@ByGeorge - "no teacher should not allowed to point to their students as the defective material with which they must work." Trying to get past the double negative, but delete the "not" so it makes sense, then the hoisting of teachers, or anyone else, on the petard of political correctness, is always gratifying.

25) Comment by ByGeorge - 07/06/2012

@timesright... I don't blame teachers for everything. But I do insist teachers shoulder their share of the responsibility. Should teachers never, they had better boot up their computers because their teaching jobs - the few remaining - will be on the other side of it.

26) Comment by Tea_Slayer - 07/06/2012

teacherguy, great analogy but the teacher-bashers refuse to see that

27) Comment by ByGeorge - 07/06/2012

Well... teacherguy, if you want to compare our poor roads with our poor schools be my guest. At the top of that pyramid sits years and years of poor leadership. What a revelation you have had my dear Apostle John. Yet to the extent that poor roads equate with inadequate learning, the common factor is most often - not always - the incompetence of the person in charge of doing the constructing. And unlike the case where an effective construction worker may point to inferior materials as the real reason for the pooconstruction of our terrible roads, no teacher should not allowed to point to their students as the defective material with which they must work. If this is too much for the teacher guys and gals in this state to comprehend then concern yourself with adjusting our scores to those of Finland. But beware, Finland is at the cutting edge when it comes to virtual learning...

28) Comment by timesright - 07/06/2012

@ByGeorge.. If the last 6 months has proved anything it is that Louisiana's educators don't have a clue what they are doing. Worse than this, they don't even know what the issues are that they should be addressing. What a horrible accusation! I agree, that not every teacher understood everything that was happening so quickly in the legislature or truly understood what the consequences would be and are, but to say teachers don't know what should be addressed, I beg to differ. Educators presented researched based reform plans. They were met with deaf ears by most. When one is constantly blasted with negative comments from all sides, it gets harder and harder to stay upbeat. But, teachers continue to do their very best each and everyday with the students that enter their classrooms. Teachers do know. It's the quality of life and exposure to poverty that is the bottom line. It's the lack of support from people like you, who blame the teachers for everything.

29) Comment by teacherguy - 07/06/2012

The roads in LA are terrible because of bad construction workers. We use the same materials as the other states, but our roads are some of the worst in the US because ALL of our construction workers are ineffective. The fact that we have some of the most inhospitable environment, refuse to fund the transportation department adequately, use poor quality materials, planned poorly (interstates in BR), allow vehicles access that tears up roads, etc...has little to do with why our roads are so bad. The same is true about teachers and schools. Saying our schools are bad because of ineffective teachers is as stupid as saying our roads are bad due to terrible construction workers. For the most part, the districts that rank with Finland (when adjusted for similar poverty rates)...the teachers are some of the best in the world. Reforming ALL education in the state is a mistake when only the failing schools and districts should be targeted...but that brings up race and poverty issues. Quit bashing on ALL teachers, because the test scores more appropriately reflect the condition of the neighborhoods teachers teach in than the quality of the teacher.

30) Comment by BRmoderate - 07/06/2012

People are pointing to NOLA as an example. Why? I also do not see the logic of blaming teachers for our current mess. We as a state have eroded our educational system by electing inept school boards, and politicians who do not have our children best interests at heart. Segregation and Desegregation and a tax policy that underfunds schools in many parishes are also major contributing factors. The only solution that will work is properly funded community based schools. Having numerous educational choices is great but it does not ensure that we are providing the greatest educational experience to the greatest number of students possible.

31) Comment by spqr - 07/06/2012

Well, being stupid, you continue to get your wish. New Orleans and BR charter schools again rank at the bottom of state scores. Congrats.

32) Comment by Being_Stupid - 07/06/2012

I see a panel of passive people, except for Eric Lewis. THE ONLY PERSON ON THAT PANEL WITH A SOLUTION IS ERIC LEWIS. The rest of the people on that panel are just complaining, talking, and obstructing. Blah Blah Blah - No Solutions to the Problem - More Talk - Blah Blah = Typical Thursday Night School Board Meeting = Lot of Talk and No Action = kids still trapped in failing schools - Blah Blah Blah.

33) Comment by Being_Stupid - 07/06/2012

Barbara Freiberg = Noel Hammatt part II

34) Comment by Being_Stupid - 07/06/2012

Eric Lewis = The Man with the Plan. Eric Lewis with the Black Alliance for Educational Options is here to free these kids from the Tyranny of the Government Dictators. What is happening in New Orleans, needs to start happening here.

35) Comment by ByGeorge - 07/06/2012

They did have this debate before the bills were made into laws. No opponent of the bills said anything worth hearing then either. This is a complicated issue. We ask teachers to do the impossible. But after all the dust has cleared, looking back it is easy to see that the fundamental mistake that educators made was in taking a position forcing them to look outside of their classrooms for reasons why they could not do their jobs inside their classrooms. If educators would have acknowledged that effective teachers are the essential ingredient to repairing the deep gash in the hull of our public schools and that all Louisiana teachers are not effective teachers, perhaps they could have righted their ship. Anyway, that was yesterday's battle. Tomorrow's battle is this idea of virtual schools. There is a member of the school board in a nearby parish who has made this claim: "classroom teachers may not be needed in 10 to 15 years". The school superintendent in this same district has said "virtual learning will save millions". Yes... not educating children will save millions for the adults employed in that school district. But in this school disctrict, failing to educate children so as to save money for the adults in the system is not a new strategy. This is why that district is currently ranked 53rd out of 68. If the last 6 months has proved anything it is that Louisiana's educators don't have a clue what they are doing. Worse than this, they don't even know what the issues are that they should be addressing.

36) Comment by Being_Stupid - 07/06/2012

Sharon Broome is an obstructionist. She is like a Brick Wall. Tear down the Wall. Tear down the Teacher's Union and the Democrat Party Elite Mind Control over our children and public education system. We don't need their education, we don't need their thought control. All in All they are just bricks in the wall. Leave those kids alone. And let the Parents, not the ACLU or some School Board Government Micromanager, choose what school is best for their child.

37) Comment by TommyRucker - 07/06/2012

Anything has got to be better than the present public school system which is a mess and is only serving the pocket books of the teachers and administrators in the system who enjoy much better benefits than most people in the private system but continue to complain that they are not getting enough money. Its all about money and little to nothing about teaching our kids. The public school system has been a failure for decades, it is past time to do something else and listening to people who have a vested interest in the present public school system is NOT GOING to work as we have tried that over and over and it has NOT worked.

38) Comment by WhoCares - 07/06/2012

Pat Smith is not good for education. That whole crew's mindsets are stuck in the 60s When will their generation stop messing everything up. It didnt take long for Freiberg to become status quo.

39) Comment by WhoCares - 07/06/2012

Who Cares.

40) Comment by lovemykids - 07/06/2012

No time was given for these discussions.

41) Comment by gvm - 07/06/2012

@SuzanneMS: I had the exact same thought!!!

42) Comment by SuzanneMS - 07/06/2012

Shouldn't these discussions have taken place BEFORE the bills were made law?